AFCI Breakers

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mopowr steve

mopowr steve

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Location
NW Ohio
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Electrical contractor
Dennis Alwon said:
This is why you mark up materials. If this is not enough you then need to figure a bit more for installation of afci. I have so few problems with them I don't figure any more than I usually do.

These same arguments were around when gfci breakers & receptacles came on the market
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Yeh, I did get over the gfi arguments years ago. And they have come a long way but I never spent several trips and hours on a gfi problem that I couldn't fix versus afci which I have. To find out eventually that when someone's TV would go to a full bright white screen during a program would trip the D..N thing because it didn't like the PWM power supply in it ramping up frequency/pulse width to drive the power requirements to illuminate a bright white screen.
Found this out using my intelliarc meter from Siemens and camp out time with homeowner.

I normally don't have many issues with them either but when I do what a PITA.
Like a customers brand new vacuum (with dual motors), Sometimes blown bulbs (when filament arcs within bulb during its demise), selecting speeds with paddle fan wall controls,
treadmill, LED lighting within refrigerator, just to name a few incidents that were truly nuisance trips which cost me time and money.
I don't wish any of this on you but your day will come as long as you have satisfied customers that repeat call you when an issue arises.
 
PetrosA

PetrosA

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, Pennsylvania
mopowr steve said:
Yeh, I did get over the gfi arguments years ago. And they have come a long way but I never spent several trips and hours on a gfi problem that I couldn't fix versus afci which I have. To find out eventually that when someone's TV would go to a full bright white screen during a program would trip the D..N thing because it didn't like the PWM power supply in it ramping up frequency/pulse width to drive the power requirements to illuminate a bright white screen.
Found this out using my intelliarc meter from Siemens and camp out time with homeowner.

I normally don't have many issues with them either but when I do what a PITA.
Like a customers brand new vacuum (with dual motors), Sometimes blown bulbs (when filament arcs within bulb during its demise), selecting speeds with paddle fan wall controls,
treadmill, LED lighting within refrigerator, just to name a few incidents that were truly nuisance trips which cost me time and money.
I don't wish any of this on you but your day will come as long as you have satisfied customers that repeat call you when an issue arises.
Click to expand...

That stuff is beyond crazy. I don't think I'd have the patience or figure-it-outiveness to get to the bottom of those problems.
 
J

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
mopowr steve said:
Yeh, I did get over the gfi arguments years ago. And they have come a long way but I never spent several trips and hours on a gfi problem that I couldn't fix versus afci which I have. To find out eventually that when someone's TV would go to a full bright white screen during a program would trip the D..N thing because it didn't like the PWM power supply in it ramping up frequency/pulse width to drive the power requirements to illuminate a bright white screen.
Found this out using my intelliarc meter from Siemens and camp out time with homeowner.

I normally don't have many issues with them either but when I do what a PITA.
Like a customers brand new vacuum (with dual motors), Sometimes blown bulbs (when filament arcs within bulb during its demise), selecting speeds with paddle fan wall controls,
treadmill, LED lighting within refrigerator, just to name a few incidents that were truly nuisance trips which cost me time and money.
I don't wish any of this on you but your day will come as long as you have satisfied customers that repeat call you when an issue arises.
Click to expand...

PetrosA said:
That stuff is beyond crazy. I don't think I'd have the patience or figure-it-outiveness to get to the bottom of those problems.
Click to expand...

This is the conundrum that AFCI's put us in. Why hasn't some one mandated a requirement like found on electronics for AFCI. "This device must accept any interference, and this device must not create interference" or some such verbiage. The electrician is caught in the middle. Has any one at SQ D, Cutler Hammer, GE, Siemens acknowledged the problems noted in mopowr's post
 
ActionDave

ActionDave

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Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
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Licensed Electrician
John120/240 said:
Has any one at SQ D, Cutler Hammer, GE, Siemens acknowledged the problems noted in mopowr's post
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Not an outright Mae Culpa but I talked to a GE dude who told me how they did not have so many electronic loads to be aware of when they made the breakers I had installed that were nuisance tripping when the home owners tried to watch tv or use their Dyson vacuum.

He sent me some newer, better, AFCI breakers free of charge, bless his heart.

He did not offer to pay for the time I spent making sure it was not something besides the breaker. He also did not offer to pay for my time to take the breakers he was sending me free of charge, bless his heart, and swap them out with the older, badder ones.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I just did some simple Google searching all I had to to type was AFCI brea and Google auto filled AFCI breaker tripping.

Than I typed AFCI breaker v and Google auto filled AFCI breaker vacuum

Check the results https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=afci+breaker+vacuum

Master the NEC tries to say it is Mike Holt Forum member bias against AFCIs, I think the range of sources in the results proves otherwise.
 
romex jockey

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
more fat for the fire....

more fat for the fire....

don_resqcapt19 said:
I believe that is about the time frame where GE removed the GFP from their AFCIs.
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They went down swingin' too...

Btw, this is what i mean by 'canned studies'.....
it was demonstrated that a Branch/Feeder AFCI
incorporating equipment ground fault protection (30 mA trip) is capable of
terminating a glowing connection and the associated heating effects by sensing
the differential current associated with thermal degradation of the wiring device
insulating material(s
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mbrooke

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
romex jockey said:
They went down swingin' too...

Btw, this is what i mean by 'canned studies'.....
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That would be true if an EGC is right next to the failing insulation, over 9 out of 10 times that is not the case. It seems at first AFCI makers were pushing claims they stop glowing connections but clearly from no longer making those claims and researching separate technologies to tackle glowing connections they either lied or mislead themselves into thinking so.
 
romex jockey

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
woof!

woof!

Methinks it rather obvious i could, given enough $$$, have my dog listed for fluent Latin



he could (for a biscuit or two) then make a presentation to the CMP



the NEMA task force providing translations .....



~RJ~
 
mbrooke

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
romex jockey said:
Methinks it rather obvious i could, given enough $$$, have my dog listed for fluent Latin



he could (for a biscuit or two) then make a presentation to the CMP



the NEMA task force providing translations .....



~RJ~
Click to expand...

Sad but true. AFCI technology was hyped and hyped and hyped in front of the CMP. Time came a lot of what it could do came apparent not to be so, most famous example being branch feeder AFCI being changed to combination AFCI.
 
romex jockey

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Waiter....there's an afci in my soup!

Waiter....there's an afci in my soup!

Which begs the Q, where are our branch ciruit afci's ?

If in fact we could purchase them , i'm fairly sure the old split buss panels would gain popularity again



~RJ~
 
mbrooke

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
romex jockey said:
Which begs the Q, where are our branch ciruit afci's ?

If in fact we could purchase them , i'm fairly sure the old split buss panels would gain popularity again



~RJ~
Click to expand...



Its funny, they have this ;);):

(3) A listed supplemental arc protection circuit breaker installed
at the origin of the branch circuit in combination
with a listed outlet branch-circuit type arc-fault circuit
interrupter installed at the first outlet box on the branch
circuit where all of the following conditions are met:

a. The branch-circuit wiring shall be continuous from
the branch-circuit overcurrent device to the outlet
branch-circuit arc-fault circuit interrupter.

b. The maximum length of the branch-circuit wiring
from the branch-circuit overcurrent device to the
first outlet shall not exceed 15.2 m (50 ft) for a
14 AWG conductor or 21.3 m (70 ft) for a 12 AWG
conductor.

c. The first outlet box in the branch circuit shall be
marked to indicate that it is the first outlet of the
circuit.
Click to expand...

Which, the study that backs it is rather revealing...

As is this:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ul+489e
 
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