AFCI satisfaction poll. Please take a moment to answer.

[edlee]

When we first started having to use them and one would trip I spent many hours trying to track the problems and understand what this new technology was doing. Sometimes I could find a culprit, like a new closet light with a magnetic ballast and T12 lamp. Or a low-volt dimmer it didn't like. Or a neutral-ground contact that shouldn't be (GFI problem, not Af, right?) So I'd fix that or swap out the fixture or dimmer. if there was nothing I could find then I'd try swapping out the breaker itself until I found one that didn't trip.

But after a while I gave up because sometimes the thing was never satisfied. So now I put them in as required and they mostly work. I finish, get inspected and leave. If I get a call back I spend a modest amount of time checking into it and if nothing, then I replace the breaker with a conventional one. I don't care to do things this way but I don't see any other practical solution until the manufacturers or the code-writing committees get it right.

 

[kwired]

When we first started having to use them and one would trip I spent many hours trying to track the problems and understand what this new technology was doing. Sometimes I could find a culprit, like a new closet light with a magnetic ballast and T12 lamp. Or a low-volt dimmer it didn't like. Or a neutral-ground contact that shouldn't be (GFI problem, not Af, right?) So I'd fix that or swap out the fixture or dimmer. if there was nothing I could find then I'd try swapping out the breaker itself until I found one that didn't trip.

But after a while I gave up because sometimes the thing was never satisfied. So now I put them in as required and they mostly work. I finish, get inspected and leave. If I get a call back I spend a modest amount of time checking into it and if nothing, then I replace the breaker with a conventional one. I don't care to do things this way but I don't see any other practical solution until the manufacturers or the code-writing committees get it right.

That is true for many, we have become more aware of wiring errors that won't cause troubles with standard breakers, and that is ok, same thing happens when wiring GFCI's, but when they don't play well with other equipment that is supposed to be safe as is - we have a problem that makes the contractor, the inspector and anyone else that makes the owner see this nuisance device nothing but money trap plus it just makes the electrical trade in general look like they don't know what they are doing with these things.

 

[gaelectric]

I had a house that we wired on the 2011 code. Siemens panel with several AFCI breakers on the required circuits throughout the house. We generally put only lighting on a circuit as well as only receptacles on a circuit.

In the first year after the house was complete (warranty period) The builder would call every now and then to tell me the homeowner had an instance of an AFCI in a particular area(s) tripping.

We went to the house at least four times. We would get there and there would be an AFCI tripped. We would turn the thing on and troubleshoot the circuit as best we could. Checked for neutral to ground in the switch boxes. Flip on every switch like ten times. Operate the dimmers. Turn the TV's on and off as well as the sound systems and cable or dish receivers. Plug in power tools to create a heavy load. Nothing. I never could get one of those breakers to trip while we were there.

I bought one of those Siemens Intelli-Arc devices in hopes that it could help determine the threshold that it took to trip the breakers. No real help there. Did see some things with that tester that surprised me. It would show an increased threshold for tripping when things were turned on the opposite phase. Overall would not recommend.

We finally changed a few of the breakers on the reported circuits to Cutler Hammer. Last time I was there was just about the end of the first year. I gave the owner my business card and told him that if there were any more problems not to call the builder, just call me directly and I would come back to check it out and probably change some more breakers to another type. Never heard from him again.

All told I spent hours there checking everything I could think of to re-create the problem. Blindly changing to new breakers of the original type and changing to breakers of another type.

Now, I still have not figured if there was a real problem or if the homeowner had too much time on his hands and was just screwing with me for some reason. Just found it odd that after the warranty period was up the problems seemed to go away. I always wondered if he hired another guy to check it out and he just changed the breakers to standard type and walked away.

Perfect example of looking like I had no idea of what the hell I was doing. I must have been on the phone with the builder like ten times discussing the issue.

I might have actually made some profit on that job if AFCI was not required.

 

[George Stolz]

Gaelectric, nice post. It captures the heart of the problem here, which is that AFCIs trip for no known logical reason, under illogical conditions, whether there is a verifiable problem or not.

Troubleshooting ghosts can produce ill will towards ECs who have done everything exactly right.

 

[George Stolz]

A 15% approval rating? Hell, it beats Congress! :lol:

 

[Randy W]

Somewhat satisfied

Somewhat satisfied

I have installed a few of these... kinda happy they finally came out with an outlet like the GFCI that can be put in at the end and not on the breaker side. Have had problems trying to convince clients this is a good idea beings they trip so easily with older vacuums and other equipment. The first problem is the price... the second is their sensitivity. We wants to go out and buy a new vacuum that worked for my grandmother, but not now in these new circuits? I argue with my general all the time that I hate putting these breakers or outlets in place before construction is over, due to the insane thoughts by most contractors that their old beat up equipment is good to go. Many contractors have so old of equipment, they trip these circuits quickly. I think contractors on the whole have to upgrade their equipment, if the providers of these devices can not make them less sensitive...?...

 

[ActionDave]

...... Many contractors have so old of equipment, they trip these circuits quickly. I think contractors on the whole have to upgrade their equipment, if the providers of these devices can not make them less sensitive...?...

Not true. I have seen AFCI's nuisance trip on BRAND NEW tools, tools that worked fine when plugged into a GFCI protected circuit.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

LOL...well all I can say is Get Ready for the 2017 NEC.......haters of AFCI will really be upset then....Just Sayin

 

[peter d]

LOL...well all I can say is Get Ready for the 2017 NEC.......haters of AFCI will really be upset then....Just Sayin

And your nonchalant attitude about a fraudulent, worthless device that is mandated for electricians to use and consumers to ultimately pay for makes me

 

[MasterTheNEC]

And your nonchalant attitude about a fraudulent, worthless device that is mandated for electricians to use and consumers to ultimately pay for makes me

Oh Mr. Sour Grapes....lol......I just stated the facts...look at the 2017 Proposals..

BUT this is YOUR MOMENT to speak your mind in the Public Comments......Have At it....

 

[peter d]

Oh Mr. Sour Grapes....lol......I just stated the facts...look at the 2017 Proposals..

BUT this is YOUR MOMENT to speak your mind in the Public Comments......Have At it....

I'm aware of the 2017 proposals, and once again, it represents a major step backwards for the NEC. I think an alternative code to the NEC should now seriously be considered.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

I'm aware of the 2017 proposals, and once again, it represents a major step backwards for the NEC. I think an alternative code to the NEC should now seriously be considered.

Ahhh...good luck with that:angel:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Ahhh...good luck with that:angel:

Replacing the NEC with the Chicago code would be a good start

 

[ActionDave]

Replacing the NEC with the Chicago code would be a good start

I'm in.

 

[peter d]

79% of those who responded are either dissatisfied or completely unsatisfied with AFCI's. Yet the propaganda machine for them rolls on. :roll:

 

[peter d]

Ahhh...good luck with that:angel:

At some point I will simply start wiring things according to my own code based on my knowledge of electrical theory and acceptable trade practices, and I can guarantee it won't include AFCI's.

 

[iwire]

Replacing the NEC with the Chicago code would be a good start

I'm in.

Forget that, Chicago has no idea what cables are.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Forget that, Chicago has no idea what cables are.

But they don't know what AFCIs are either

 

[peter d]

Forget that, Chicago has no idea what cables are.

Maybe we can get a bunch of cable manufacturers together to influence the Chicago code so we can get that rule changed. :lol::lol:

 

[ActionDave]

Maybe we can get a bunch of cable manufacturers together to influence the Chicago code so we can get that rule changed. :lol::lol:

Wow! I'm trying to get my head around the idea. Chicago Government officials and the NEC CMP members in the same room. The immovable object meets the irresistible force.

How many briefcases full of cash would it take to get that deal done?