Apprentice :Journeyman ratio

[git2work]

What is the ratio concerning apprentices vs journeymen? On 3 of the last projects I've been on apprentices outnumber journeymen 3 to 1. Worse yet ,when asked about even the most basic electrical theory they can't begin to give a straight answer. Is this going on everywhere or do they do things "different " in Oregon?


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[jumper]

I would say it varies from area to area. I have seen posts here saying anywhere from 2:1 to 10:1.

 

[iwire]

I agree with Jumper, it depends on the area, the job, the local laws, contract requirements, etc.

Here it is one to one.

 

[git2work]

What I'm seeing is the journeymen get no OT and the apprentices work 7 days a week. I guess 3 - $12/hr teenagers makes more sense than 1 - $40/hr 50 year old. At least till the company employing them spends the next 10 years doing warranty work fixing all the screw ups. Pretty sad state of affairs.

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[James L]

That ratio really depends on what you mean by apprentice. That's such a generic term meaning "learner"

And quite frankly, none of us has finished learning.

I really like to use different sub-designations for apprentice:

1) Greenie, mule, rat, gopher...you get the drift
2) Helper...only select tasks can be handled alone. Needs mucho oversight
3) Semi-skilled...good install skills, no design, little troubleshooting
4) Skilled...he's only a half ounce of confidence away from being an electrician

And I don't like making a designation based on years. I've met some 4-year apprentices who were no better than a good helper. And I've met some 2-year guys who can work alone 90% of the time

I just worked a very small job with a helper and a skilled guy. And 35% of my time was spent helping the helper, double checking the helper, fixing what the helper messed up, etc.

 

[rlundsrud]

Have you contacted a BA, or filed a grievance? The BA should be able to tell you the appropriate ratio, here in Chicago (IBEW 134) it is 2:1 and the overtime thing you referred to would never happen.

 

[J.P.]

On large jobs and I haven't seen the inspector for a while....... I will load up pretty good if everybody is keeping busy. I had 6 guys on a couple of schools we were doing. Makes it really handy running M/C. Lots of ladders

I usually spend all day walking from guy to guy or trying to get the general nailed down on specifics.

Two apprentices is all I can legally run in my state though. Honestly I have never had a issue with a inspector as long as everybody had a license or application for one.

 

[Fulthrotl]

What is the ratio concerning apprentices vs journeymen? On 3 of the last projects I've been on apprentices outnumber journeymen 3 to 1. Worse yet ,when asked about even the most basic electrical theory they can't begin to give a straight answer. Is this going on everywhere or do they do things "different " in Oregon?

as said, if the job is signatory, the working agreement for that area will state clearly.
it's usually a highly negotiated aspect of every working agreement i've ever seen.

if the job isn't signatory, then it really depends on how many ladders you have on the job....
i've seen jobs where there is one licensed journeyman, and 12 "apprentices".
and if someone wants to put 12 helpers and one licensed journeyman on one job,
especially a fast track, then i think that he should be permitted to steal all the chain
he can swim with. 12 inexperienced and/or indifferent people can make more mistakes
than one person can fix easily.

over the course of my time doing this stuff, jobs usually had a mix of young studs and
old farts, and most of the stuff i learned that kept me in good stead over the years
didn't come from young studs. most everything of value i bring to my skill set was learned
from people over the age of 45.

the last six years have weeded anyone out of the industry who had sufficient pension
funds accumulated to exit, to a large extent. there's a shortage of old farts to provide
leavening to the young studs... friend of mine sent me a couple photos of a large cable
pull that went on this week at LAX, and the comment was that there was some shortfalls
in the talent set that was available... a lot of young guys doing it, and running it, and not
a lot of experience with big cable pulls.....

 

[Sierrasparky]

as said, if the job is signatory, the working agreement for that area will state clearly.
it's usually a highly negotiated aspect of every working agreement i've ever seen.

if the job isn't signatory, then it really depends on how many ladders you have on the job....
i've seen jobs where there is one licensed journeyman, and 12 "apprentices".
and if someone wants to put 12 helpers and one licensed journeyman on one job,
especially a fast track, then i think that he should be permitted to steal all the chain
he can swim with. 12 inexperienced and/or indifferent people can make more mistakes
than one person can fix easily.

over the course of my time doing this stuff, jobs usually had a mix of young studs and
old farts, and most of the stuff i learned that kept me in good stead over the years
didn't come from young studs. most everything of value i bring to my skill set was learned
from people over the age of 45.

the last six years have weeded anyone out of the industry who had sufficient pension
funds accumulated to exit, to a large extent. there's a shortage of old farts to provide
leavening to the young studs... friend of mine sent me a couple photos of a large cable
pull that went on this week at LAX, and the comment was that there was some shortfalls
in the talent set that was available... a lot of young guys doing it, and running it, and not
a lot of experience with big cable pulls.....

I thought CA had a law that says a 1:1 if working for a C-10 , and CSLB has a zero tolerance. Thought so.

 

[git2work]

Must have been nice in the old days where young bucks showed the elders in the tribe some respect .

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[iwire]

That ratio really depends on what you mean by apprentice. That's such a generic term meaning "learner"

In my area, MA, CT, RI an apprentice is not a generic term, it has a specific meaning. It means the person is registered with the state as an apprentice they cannot (legally) be left unsupervised. They will remain an apprentice approximately four years and then they can sit for the journeyman test.

Of course you are right, they will have different skill levels, some are great but we still can't leave them alone or have more than one apprentice to a journeyman.

 

[iwire]

as said, if the job is signatory, the working agreement for that area will state clearly.
it's usually a highly negotiated aspect of every working agreement i've ever seen.

For sure.

if the job isn't signatory, then it really depends on how many ladders you have on the job....

Many areas have laws / rules about ratio that apply to union and non-union equally. Here we are 1 to 1.

And some job contracts have requirements that exceed the state or union rules.



With all the crazy laws and restrictions CA has it blows me away there is not state wide licensing and apprentice rules. :huh:

 

[gadfly56]

One of the agreements I've seen in NJ had the ratio as 3 journeymen to 1 apprentice. I had to read it a couple of times to be sure I hadn't got it backwards. I think it had to do with some proposal backed by one of the locals (696 IIRC) that was trying to get NJ to basically lock out non-union labor from doing any sprinkler work in the state.

 

[Sierrasparky]

For sure.




Many areas have laws / rules about ratio that apply to union and non-union equally. Here we are 1 to 1.

And some job contracts have requirements that exceed the state or union rules.



With all the crazy laws and restrictions CA has it blows me away there is not state wide licensing and apprentice rules. :huh:

Who says CA does not have a state wide licensing and apprentice rule.
There is one.
If you work for a Electrical contractor ( C-10) you must only employ state certified employees or apprentice that work with wires. I assume ditch digging is exempt. There is a 1:1 ratio for apprentice to certified electricians. Re certification with continuing ED is 2 years.
As said before there is a Zero tolerance if you the C-10 get caught.

The big catch is that a General contractor taking a on a project involving multiple trades can perform electrical without a C-10 and without certified workers. Only a union job or a job with contract rules would prohibit this exception.

I think Fire systems and asbestos may be the only trade that a GC cannot do unless specifically licensed for.

 

[iwire]

Who says CA does not have a state wide licensing and apprentice rule.
There is one.
If you work for a Electrical contractor ( C-10) you must only employ state certified employees or apprentice that work with wires. I assume ditch digging is exempt. There is a 1:1 ratio for apprentice to certified electricians. Re certification with continuing ED is 2 years.
As said before there is a Zero tolerance if you the C-10 get caught.

The big catch is that a General contractor taking a on a project involving multiple trades can perform electrical without a C-10 and without certified workers. Only a union job or a job with contract rules would prohibit this exception.

I think Fire systems and asbestos may be the only trade that a GC cannot do unless specifically licensed for.

From reading many forum posts it is clear whatever system you have is very screwed up.

 

[Sierrasparky]

From reading many forum posts it is clear whatever system you have is very screwed up.

Yea has it's loopholes.
Screwed up like the rest of CA.

 

[Fulthrotl]

From reading many forum posts it is clear whatever system you have is very screwed up.

a clear, succinct, and accurate summary of the situation as it stands.

yes, there is an apprentice to journeyman ratio here. it varies, depending on the situation.
there is both a state mandated level, and negotiated levels restricting it further.
i'm not current on the ratio, i've been a one man band for 10 years now.

and, in this fine state, you need a general journeyman wiremans license to ply your trade.
there is a separate residential license. don't know anyone with one, can't speak to that.

is it enforced? dunno. never been asked to show proof of licensure.
to work as a sparky around here, you need proof of citizenship, SS number, journeymans
license, and pass a drug test.

based on what i've observed, i'm suspecting that some people wearing bags don't have
all those boxes checked. some, i'm guessing the only one they are good with is passing
a drug test, probably due to lack of opportunity.

 

[iwire]

If a GC can wire without a license that to me says you don't have statewide licensing requirements.

In my little corner of New England only a licensed electrician can obtain electrical permits and only licensed electricians or a single apprentice under their direct supervision can do electrical work.

Yes some folks cheat but there is spotty enforcement and fines or loss of license for doing so.

I work for a large company with many job sites, there is a women in the office whose job it is to verify the daily attendance reports to make sure we stay in ratio. If a j-man bangs out sick we might have to relocate an apprentice to maintain the ratio.

 

[growler]

Must have been nice in the old days where young bucks showed the elders in the tribe some respect .

Yes but old age back then was only about 35 so there was a down side.

 

[Padilla616]

In Michigan it is usually 1:1 ratio, there are a few exceptions which allow 2:1.