Bonding the Hot Water pipe.

[jwelectric]

Could you tell me why metallic piping and fittings between the sections in question does not bond them together? Maybe even with less resistance than a bonding clamp that depends on the pressure of the screws in the clamp to maintain continuity?

Water heater is not likely to have a bypass valve. Many new water softeners do have bypass valve as part of unit. Many plumbers have and still do put in bypass valve ahead of softener connections. If this is metallic piping and valve why would you need to install a bonding jumper? Hot and cold water systems often do have metallic mixing valves at showers, laundry, etc that provide highly conductive path between the two.

If the valves are not allowed to be considered bonding the pipes on each side of the valves then we should have to bond around every fitting in the system.

The argument that a bonding jumper at the water heater is easier for inspector to verify is simply stupid. How does he know there is not an isolating device someplace else if all he is looking at is the water heater. He needs to do his job and look at more than just the water heater. If new construction he was there at rough in, maybe he could have opened his eyes long enough to look at the plumbing a little.

Why would an electrical inspector look at plumbing? Are they going to turn down the plumber if there is a nonmetallic fitting somewhere in the plumbing system?

Why would the electrical inspector even care if the plumbing pipes have continuity? What benefit would either the plumbing or electrical gain if the plumbing was total metal? What does it matter if there is no continuity between the hot and cold pipes?

Is there a requirement in either the plumbing or electrical code that requires the plumbing to have electrical continuity?

 

[kwired]

Why would an electrical inspector look at plumbing? Are they going to turn down the plumber if there is a nonmetallic fitting somewhere in the plumbing system?

Why would the electrical inspector even care if the plumbing pipes have continuity? What benefit would either the plumbing or electrical gain if the plumbing was total metal? What does it matter if there is no continuity between the hot and cold pipes?

Is there a requirement in either the plumbing or electrical code that requires the plumbing to have electrical continuity?

If he does not look at the plumbing how does he know if it is bonded in the first place.

I'm not talking about him being a plumbing inspector, I'm talking about making sure that requirements of 250.104 are met. If there are metallic piping systems or exposed structural steel they generally require bonding. That is something the inspector should be looking at. But that does not mean every piece of pipe needs a bonding jumper on it, most of them are connected together somehow and electrical continuity inherently exists. Intentional isolation such as dielectric unions is an exception, but the two different sections of piping are still often inherently bonded someplace like a mixing valve.

Non metallic piping system - no bonding issues. There are still metallic piping systems out there, and they must be dealt with during rennovations, upgrades, etc.

 

[jwelectric]

If he does not look at the plumbing how does he know if it is bonded in the first place.

I'm not talking about him being a plumbing inspector, I'm talking about making sure that requirements of 250.104 are met. If there are metallic piping systems or exposed structural steel they generally require bonding. That is something the inspector should be looking at. But that does not mean every piece of pipe needs a bonding jumper on it, most of them are connected together somehow and electrical continuity inherently exists. Intentional isolation such as dielectric unions is an exception, but the two different sections of piping are still often inherently bonded someplace like a mixing valve.

Non metallic piping system - no bonding issues. There are still metallic piping systems out there, and they must be dealt with during rennovations, upgrades, etc.

So once again I am asking why you feel it is so important to insure there is electrical continuity in a metal piping system. Where is the requirement to insure this continuity?

Let me make it simple, a nonmetallic pipe is supplying a main valve for a dwelling unit that has a 200 amp service. From the main valve to the water heater is copper pipe. From the water heater for the rest of the plumbing of the cold water is in nonmetallic pipe. From the water heater on the hot water side is all copper. Nonmetallic supply lines are used from the copper to the top of the water heater.

What if any bonding is needed?

 

[iwire]

http://www.theelectricalguru.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1294924855

Every once and a while I will sneak over there and stir the pot and even let my students get involved just for laughs. Yes I do enjoy listening to some of them try to prove their point by usurping authority instead of using the spirit of the codes for their foundation.

Do you ever wonder what kind of life some of them have outside of work? It seems as if they are not at work they are on the internet. What kind of family life do they have?

Stirring the pot Mike?

Trying to have some laughs at the members of this forums expense?

Did you ask your boss if you can still post here?

 

[kwired]

So once again I am asking why you feel it is so important to insure there is electrical continuity in a metal piping system. Where is the requirement to insure this continuity?

Let me make it simple, a nonmetallic pipe is supplying a main valve for a dwelling unit that has a 200 amp service. From the main valve to the water heater is copper pipe. From the water heater for the rest of the plumbing of the cold water is in nonmetallic pipe. From the water heater on the hot water side is all copper. Nonmetallic supply lines are used from the copper to the top of the water heater.

What if any bonding is needed?

On the install you describe - none. I would not call the small amount of metal piping a "system".

You are going outside the scope of this thread with that install.

 

[pete m.]

Where in the NEC can you cite that the metal water pipes of a building are required to be electrically continuous?

Nowhere that I know of.

The NEC, as I understand it, simply requires that Metal Water Piping Systems be bonded. 250.104(A).

The continuity of the required bond can rely on the piping itself but as you pointed out 250.53(D)(1) imposes limits as to what in the piping system can be relied on for the continuity of the bond.

Using examples of non-metallic and metallic water piping systems in a structure does not negate the bonding required for the portion of the metal piping system regardless whether the water piping contains hot or cold water.

Pete

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is no answer to Mike's question because the code does not address a piece meal plumbing system. In NC our head guy states if the system is metallic for more than 50% of the system then it must be bonded. No- the NEC doesn't say that but if the ahj requires it then it must be done whether we agree or not.

Mike is saying at what point is the system a metal piping system. But back to thread if the hot water and the cold water pipes were truly isolated then I would bond both. IMO, that would be an unusually hookup around these parts.

 

[jwelectric]

Stirring the pot Mike?

Yes

Trying to have some laughs at the members of this forums expense?

No trying to understand why some are insisting that there is some hidden requirement that a metal water piping system is required to be electrically continuous. To require that the potable water supply in a building be made electrically continuous by bonding around anything is not a code requirement as I can find. Should someone be able to show me this requirement it would be greatly appreciated.

Did you ask your boss if you can still post here?

Well she ran me out of the living room and being I just eat I don?t think getting on the treadmill would be a good idea so here I am.

On the install you describe - none. I would not call the small amount of metal piping a "system". You are going outside the scope of this thread with that install.

It is not my intention to go outside the scope of this thread but just to rein in the idea of when a metal piping system becomes a complete piping system. I am just trying to grasp the idea that the potable water comes in two parts.

Using examples of non-metallic and metallic water piping systems in a structure does not negate the bonding required for the portion of the metal piping system regardless whether the water piping contains hot or cold water. Pete

So are you saying that a nonmetallic piping system with one metal close nipple of 6 inches would require a bonding conductor??????

In NC our head guy states if the system is metallic for more than 50% of the system then it must be bonded.

I don?t believe this is exactly what he says.

Mike is saying at what point is the system a metal piping system. But back to thread if the hot water and the cold water pipes were truly isolated then I would bond both. IMO, that would be an unusually hookup around these parts.

I think what Mike is saying is; Unless the metal water piping system is a ?complete? (100 percent) metal then there is no bonding required by 250.104(A) but instead the bonding requirements of 250.104(B) is what is required. There is no verbiage anywhere in the NEC that would require a bond across a water heater even if there were no mixing valves to be found in the building. The NEC does not mandate anything for the plumbers and electricians are not allowed to installed plumbing therefore there is no longer a requirement to make any metal water system electrically continuous. The plumbing code calls the potable water one system. The only people I have ever heard call the potable water two systems, one hot the other cold, are electricians and just what do they know about plumbing and water system to start with.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don’t believe this is exactly what he says.

Well that is exactly what he told me but it seems you know more than I do about what I was told. I specifically called and asked because the house we did had all plastic except for some copper from the solar collector down to the basement-- about 100 feet of copper piping. He said if the piping were more than 50%-- I think he actually said 51%, then it would need bonding. This was 3 or 4 years ago.

 

[jwelectric]

Dennis

Unless there is a formal interpretation posted on the DOI web site then what Ron said 3 or 4 years ago is no more than what you or I had to say 3 or 4 years ago.

The code making panel has said for several code cycles now that if it is not a 100% metal piping system then 250.104(B) applies. I have posted their comments on this site several times over the past few years. Their comment will trump what Ron said 3 or 4 years ago until which time the state of NC adopts something different than what is stated in the NEC. This adoption will have to be in writing and not verbal.

In the mid-eighties the code making panelist figured out that the electrician would not always be around when a plumber was doing plumbing repairs and the plumber is allowed to make repairs in metallic plumbing with nonmetallic parts so unless the plumber holds an electrical license he cannot be installing jumpers that they removed the requirement that metal piping systems be electrically continuous from the code.
The only requirement that the electrician has now is to ensure that if the metallic pipes qualify as an electrode and the electrician elects to use the pipes itself as a path from the interior pipes to the electrode that the path be continuous and not rely on removable devices such as meters and the like. Appliances such as water heaters are not what the code panel had in mind in 250.53(D)(1)
If there is no electrode involved with the metal piping system then the only continuity the electrician has to worry about is from the point of attachment to the pipe back to the service, electrode, or electrode conductor. The electrician is not charged with ensuring that the pipes are electrically continuous including across a water heater as the hot and cold are part of ?one? potable system and does not constitute two separate piping systems.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Mike, you said "I don't think that is exactly what he said". I didn't say that was how it must be done or whether or not an AHJ would rule with him. All I stated was what Ron said and you challenged my statement.

Your interpretation is as valid or as useless as anyway elses and if an AHJ wants bonding across the water heater then most EC's will comply. I have never had to do that and I would fight it but when push comes to shove... you know the rest.

Bonding piping that is likely to be energized is a joke. At some point anything metal could potentially be energized so do we bond every siding screw, etc. Of course not.

Why does a complete system need bonding and not a 98% system not need it? That is a rhetorical question...

 

[jwelectric]

Dennis

I sit with Ron several times a year and hear what he says. Based on my conversations with him I have never heard him put an amount on the pipes such as what you said about the 50%. Maybe he did make this comment at some point but it does not hold with what I have heard him say.

It would take more effort than I am willing to spend to explain what I have heard over the years as to why if it is a 100 percent metal piping system verses one that is 99.9 percent so I will leave it as it stands. In one of the 2008 proposals the panel statement was unless it is 100 percent then use 250.104(B)

 

[jwelectric]

http://www.theelectricalguru.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1294924855 Did you ask your boss if you can still post here?

Bob
What was the purpose of this? What did it help the subject matter of the thread?
Was it to prove the statements held therein true?
In the mind of some it shows a lot about your character which is evidenced by some of the emails I have gotten questioning your motives for this post.
Let me be the first to commend you for such a good job as one of the Holt moderators who are charged with keeping personal feeling out of the forum.

 

[George Stolz]

I think it is helpful to casual users of the forum, to know that the discussion may be prolonged, or otherwise massaged, and to take all posts with a grain of salt. If someone's stated purpose in participating is to satisfy their own amusement, as opposed to helping the original poster see the complications for the betterment of their knowledge and education on the topic, then I think Bob did a service in pointing out your previous post.

I too have taken your comments in that post personally, and would welcome you to let me know via PM of these "abuses of people and our power" of which you speak.

I think the most relevant thing to point out to the OP is that 90.4 applies - the AHJ has the final interpretation of the rules. What some AHJ in NC says, or what the CMP says, or what some random opinion on the internet is, are only items to use to sway the local AHJ into a different interpretation.

 

[defears]

I was told we do it here, for the safety of the plumber removing a water heater or meter with current on it.

I can see it being dangerous if the you lost a neutral to the building.

How many plumbers do you know that check for current before removing piping?

 

[kwired]

I was told we do it here, for the safety of the plumber removing a water heater or meter with current on it.

I can see it being dangerous if the you lost a neutral to the building.

How many plumbers do you know that check for current before removing piping?

Water meter makes sense to install bonding jumper if the incoming line is an electrode.

Water heater - there should not be any current in the lines to interrupt when removing the water heater. The only reason to bond across hot-cold lines if there is insulated devices separating those lines - most of the time they have continuity between them someplace else anyway and bonding jumper if installed, does nothing.

 

[jwelectric]

Water meter makes sense to install bonding jumper if the incoming line is an electrode.

Water heater - there should not be any current in the lines to interrupt when removing the water heater. The only reason to bond across hot-cold lines if there is insulated devices separating those lines - most of the time they have continuity between them someplace else anyway and bonding jumper if installed, does nothing.

Help me to understand why you say what I have highlighted with bold.

Would you bond short metal pipe stubs for fixtures?

At what length would you require bonding of metal pipes that were isolated by something nonconductive?

 

[kwired]

Help me to understand why you say what I have highlighted with bold.

Would you bond short metal pipe stubs for fixtures?

At what length would you require bonding of metal pipes that were isolated by something nonconductive?

I am not in the crowd that thinks you always need a bonding jumper across water heater hot and cold piping or a short section of metal piping that is otherwise isolated. I also have no problem with doing it especially if the lines are truly isolated from each other, I do have a problem with inspectors that make you do so without justification.

250.104A says the metal water piping system shall be bonded. That leaves what you call a metal water piping system up to the AHJ. I would sure think that short sections of metal piping are not a system. They could however be subject to 250.104B if likely to become energized - there again that would be an AHJ call.

IMO if any metallic non current carrying object is already bonded in some way such as method of support to other grounded metal objects there is no point of installing a bonding jumper - at least for 600 volt or less, non service equipment.

 

[pete m.]

So are you saying that a nonmetallic piping system with one metal close nipple of 6 inches would require a bonding conductor?????

No. To apply the code with that logic would be the same as saying that a metallic piping system with one 6" plastic nipple would negate the bonding requirements for the remaining metal.

You have stated that you consider the "hot" and "cold" water piping in a structure to be one potable system and based upon that, if I understand you correctly, you believe that if you make a bonding connection to ANY part of the metallic water piping system that the bonding requirements of the NEC have been met. I would agree with you as long as the metal piping system as a whole is bonded by that sole connection of the bonding jumper.

If it can be determined that the hot or cold piping has been isolated by one means or another I believe it is the responsibility of the electrician and/or inspector to assure that all metal piping (where it comprises a metal water piping system) be bonded as required.

Pete

 

[jwelectric]

I do have a problem with inspectors that make you do so without justification.

What would justify bonding two pieces or metal pipes together?

You have stated that you consider the "hot" and "cold" water piping in a structure to be one potable system and based upon that, if I understand you correctly, you believe that if you make a bonding connection to ANY part of the metallic water piping system that the bonding requirements of the NEC have been met. I would agree with you as long as the metal piping system as a whole is bonded by that sole connection of the bonding jumper.

If it can be determined that the hot or cold piping has been isolated by one means or another I believe it is the responsibility of the electrician and/or inspector to assure that all metal piping (where it comprises a metal water piping system) be bonded as required. Pete

The verbiage of the ICC Plumbing Code calls the potable water one system also. Are you saying that the inspector should require the electrician to ensure continuity of the metal piping system? AT what lengths should the inspector stop requiring the electrician to bond? At what length does a piece of pipe become a system? Which code section requires continuity?

Got a water heater in the cabinet under the sink with a short piece of copper before the supply line to the sink. Does this hot water system need to be bonded?