Changing Circuit Breakers

[retirede]

There may be a difference between how many times a breaker has been used as a switch and how many times it has tripped?

Or even more so, attempted resets under fault condition.

 

[ptonsparky]

Or even more so, attempted resets under fault condition.

Back when, the new construction Resi guys messed up and couldn’t find the problem. Boss sent me over when the GE breaker had been reset so many times it would no longer trip at the 70+ amp load. I did change that one out.

 

[LarryFine]

More troubleshooters need to be taught the use of a high-wattage bulb in line with the breaker as a combination current-limiter and fault indicator.

 

[ptonsparky]

More troubleshooters need to be taught the use of a high-wattage bulb in line with the breaker as a combination current-limiter and fault indicator.

That was back in the days of my carrying a set of seriesed 60 watt lamps. OSHA would have heart failure at the sight of those.

 

[sameguy]

That was back in the days of my carrying a set of seriesed 60 watt lamps. OSHA would have heart failure at the sight of those.

Bulls balls, what we called them.
Correct on my Breaker statement unless it will not stay closed you have no idea what the breaker has gone through.
People are notorious for being useless when trouble shooting , most give false information rather than saying " I don't know".
That could be a thread on funniest bs told by people to elect. Trouble shooting.

 

[Greg1707]

Teachable Moment

Teachable Moment

More troubleshooters need to be taught the use of a high-wattage bulb in line with the breaker as a combination current-limiter and fault indicator.

Please expand on this comment with a short tutorial.

 

[Adamjamma]

Please expand on this comment with a short tutorial.

I agree- teach some of us trying to learn... I think I know what you mean, but...

 

[LarryFine]

Please expand on this comment with a short tutorial.

I agree- teach some of us trying to learn... I think I know what you mean, but...

Absolutely. When troubleshooting a circuit with a direct short circuit to either neutral or ground, it's difficult to find the fault because you can't keep the power on, so the only way to find the offending undesired connection is visually, box by box. Start by unplugging everything on the circuit.

I typically use a rubber socket with a 150-watt bulb screwed into it, and wire it in series with the problem circuit at the panel. I disconnect the circuit's hot wire from the breaker terminal, connect the socket's black wire to the breaker, and wire-nut the circuit's hot wire to the socket's white wire.


With the high-wattage bulb in series with the circuit, the breaker will stay on because the most current that can flow is that of the bulb, so it acts as a current limiter. It also functions as an indicator, steady bright for a direct short, flickering for an arcing fault, etc., with you or a helper watching it.

Alternately, if you're alone and distant from the panel, you can use a receptacle with an extension cord plugged into it to be able to keep the light (or any lamp) within sight as you troubleshoot, starting with wiggling receptacles, etc., depending on the type of circuit with the short.

In a pinch, you can use almost any load, like a vacuum or other noise-producing device, as an indicator. However, it is important to use a relatively high-current device, because you want it to have a lower impedance than anything you might have missed when unplugging stuff.

A few years ago, I had a troubleshoot for an intermittent short in a house old enough to have rigid conduit in the basement ceiling. I connected my bulb and socket as above, and it flickered, mostly bright. I traced the basement ceiling conduit to a J-box, ans separated the outgoing hots.

One at a time, I reconnected each hot until one produced the same flickering. I then traced that line to a wire going up through the floor near the front door. I went to the foyer and found a surface-mounted Wiremold box with a cat-urine-soaked receptacle that was glowing internally.

 

[Adamjamma]

thank you. that is in my testing and troubleshooting hints list. I know I had a boss used to do something similar, using an old clear 90 watt bulb... he would track down what socket was first in line, and then plug the bulb in, then he would go one by one down the circuit with the bulb... he said it would show which group was right to which was wrong pretty quick... but he was more used to big 3 phase systems than house circuits... most every motor in his workshop was three phase except for his skilsaw and drill.

 

[retirede]

Absolutely. When troubleshooting a circuit with a direct short circuit to either neutral or ground, it's difficult to find the fault because you can't keep the power on, so the only way to find the offending undesired connection is visually, box by box. Start by unplugging everything on the circuit.

I typically use a rubber socket with a 150-watt bulb screwed into it, and wire it in series with the problem circuit at the panel. I disconnect the circuit's hot wire from the breaker terminal, connect the socket's black wire to the breaker, and wire-nut the circuit's hot wire to the socket's white wire.

View attachment 21117
With the high-wattage bulb in series with the circuit, the breaker will stay on because the most current that can flow is that of the bulb, so it acts as a current limiter. It also functions as an indicator, steady bright for a direct short, flickering for an arcing fault, etc., with you or a helper watching it.

Alternately, if you're alone and distant from the panel, you can use a receptacle with an extension cord plugged into it to be able to keep the light (or any lamp) within sight as you troubleshoot, starting with wiggling receptacles, etc., depending on the type of circuit with the short.

In a pinch, you can use almost any load, like a vacuum or other noise-producing device, as an indicator. However, it is important to use a relatively high-current device, because you want it to have a lower impedance than anything you might have missed when unplugging stuff.

A few years ago, I had a troubleshoot for an intermittent short in a house old enough to have rigid conduit in the basement ceiling. I connected my bulb and socket as above, and it flickered, mostly bright. I traced the basement ceiling conduit to a J-box, ans separated the outgoing hots.

One at a time, I reconnected each hot until one produced the same flickering. I then traced that line to a wire going up through the floor near the front door. I went to the foyer and found a surface-mounted Wiremold box with a cat-urine-soaked receptacle that was glowing internally.

It’s even easier when the panel has Edison base fuses. All you need is the bulb!

 

[ptonsparky]

It’s even easier when the panel has Edison base fuses. All you need is the bulb!

:thumbsup:

 

[Craigv]

That is a good point that I left out, assuming the breaker has been reset a bunch leading up to the service call.

What is "a bunch"? In my life I have seen a great many breakers used as switches for decades (and rarely were rated for such use), so twice a day 5 to 7 days a week, 52 weeks per year, with no problems.
The
In my opinion there's not much need to replace a breaker that simply tripped several times for a minor issue. If the breaker was subjected to years of running hotter than normal as in an overloaded circuit, or had any form of physical or environmental anomaly....chlorine gas such as near pool equipment, used in livestock areas, etc., that's an excellent need to replace on a much shorter schedule. But the typical load center in the basement or indoor room in a house can keep breakers, even those that have been "used" for their intended purpose, for a very long time.

 

[Coppersmith]

I typically use a rubber socket with a 150-watt bulb screwed into it, ..... With the high-wattage bulb in series with the circuit, the breaker will stay on because the most current that can flow is that of the bulb, so it acts as a current limiter.

Can you explain a bit more about why it needs to be a high wattage bulb? Seems like a bulb of any wattage would act the same. I carry a small rough service bulb and socket with me for testing.

 

[Coppersmith]

What is "a bunch"? In my life I have seen a great many breakers used as switches for decades (and rarely were rated for such use), so twice a day 5 to 7 days a week, 52 weeks per year, with no problems.
The
In my opinion there's not much need to replace a breaker that simply tripped several times for a minor issue. If the breaker was subjected to years of running hotter than normal as in an overloaded circuit, or had any form of physical or environmental anomaly....chlorine gas such as near pool equipment, used in livestock areas, etc., that's an excellent need to replace on a much shorter schedule. But the typical load center in the basement or indoor room in a house can keep breakers, even those that have been "used" for their intended purpose, for a very long time.

If breakers had a built-in self-check like the newer GFCI's or even just an expiration date printed on their face, we electricians would have a "bunch" more business. (Take note NEMA!) Actually, it would be cool if they chirped like expired smoke detectors.

"Well Ma'am this one's expired and the rest of these are going to expire soon. I suggest you replace them all."

 

[Coppersmith]

What is "a bunch"? In my life I have seen a great many breakers used as switches for decades (and rarely were rated for such use), so twice a day 5 to 7 days a week, 52 weeks per year, with no problems.
The
In my opinion there's not much need to replace a breaker that simply tripped several times for a minor issue. If the breaker was subjected to years of running hotter than normal as in an overloaded circuit, or had any form of physical or environmental anomaly....chlorine gas such as near pool equipment, used in livestock areas, etc., that's an excellent need to replace on a much shorter schedule. But the typical load center in the basement or indoor room in a house can keep breakers, even those that have been "used" for their intended purpose, for a very long time.

I did a job for a big warehouse style store about a year ago. They flipped 12 breakers every day to turn the lights on and off. They called me after a second breaker stopped working. The handles would move but the internals didn't feel connected. (Three-phase, bolt-on GE panel). I replace all twelve breakers and installed six double-pole, 20 amp switches on the wall next to the panel to control the lights.

 

[LarryFine]

Can you explain a bit more about why it needs to be a high wattage bulb?

Because a low-power bulb will burn brightly when in series with almost anything. If you're 100% sure you unplug and disconnect every load from the circuit, then any size bulb will work.

The higher the bulb wattage, the more its brightness accurately indicates the improperly-low impedance of the fault. The idea is to drive a relatively high current through the circuit under test.

 

[LarryFine]

I replace all twelve breakers and installed six double-pole, 20 amp switches on the wall next to the panel to control the lights.

Unless they needed to control lights at different times, I might have opted for, say, three 4p contactors controlled by a single switch.

 

[Craigv]

I did a job for a big warehouse style store about a year ago. They flipped 12 breakers every day to turn the lights on and off. They called me after a second breaker stopped working. The handles would move but the internals didn't feel connected. (Three-phase, bolt-on GE panel). I replace all twelve breakers and installed six double-pole, 20 amp switches on the wall next to the panel to control the lights.

GE? No surprise.

They never were connected....

But seriously, I always suggest installing a switch bank when I see breakers used for switches. Usually the reply is, "they've been doing this for years" and frankly, for what breakers cost versus the parts 'n labor to install switches, it's cheaper to just keep using them.

 

[Craigv]

Unless they needed to control lights at different times, I might have opted for, say, three 4p contactors controlled by a single switch.

Powerlink!

 

[Coppersmith]

and frankly, for what breakers cost versus the parts 'n labor to install switches, it's cheaper to just keep using them.

You're forgetting the cost of rebuilding and destroyed inventory after the fire because the breakers which were not designed to operate for so many cycles failed and stayed locked on during an overload.