Daikin Mini-Split

[kwired]

Do you have that reference handy? I'd like to see its exact wording and keep it tabbed.

110.3(B):Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

What is possibly questionable is what instructions are included in the listing or labeling, especially when there may be translation errors in overseas made equipment.

Better question is how does such equipment get a NRTL rating for use in the US if the instructions that are supposedly part of the listing are not all that clear?

 

[hbiss]

I give kudos to the plumber for reading the installation manual.

I do think the manual seems to say it's required.

I disagree. "Be sure to install a ground fault circuit interrupter" does not mean that a ground fault circuit interrupter is required in any English that I know of.

If you think about it, it probably would be a good idea to provide a GFCI for every outdoor and rooftop A/C unit since service people are often standing on damp soil or rooftop water. But it's not required here for other than the service receptacle.

I can't see any reason other than for personal protection that ground fault protection would be required on such units.

So I agree that this comes down to something being lost in translation as well as the differences in Countries where this unit is being sold. Manufacturers design for the world market these days and I have enough experience with Japanese equipment manuals to understand that not everything is accurate.

Since the instructions are confusing and unclear, it sounds like an RFI to the US sales rep is in order.

-Hal

 

[MAC702]

I disagree. "Be sure to install a ground fault circuit interrupter" does not mean that a ground fault circuit interrupter is required in any English that I know of.

If you think about it, it probably would be a good idea to provide a GFCI for every outdoor and rooftop A/C unit since service people are often standing on damp soil or rooftop water. But it's not required here for other than the service receptacle....

What you're saying here is:

"be sure to install" DOES NOT EQUAL "is required"

but

"Be sure to install" DOES EQUAL "would be a good idea"

Okay.

I agree it should not be required. But I think the manual's wording is wrong in that it says otherwise, even though we are finding out they meant something we don't really have available.

 

[crispysonofa]

Daikin said "Don't Do It!" They are sending me an email with that information. They state that the information in the manual is left over from units sold over seas and has not been changed yet. It is interesting to find out.


Subject:
Earth leakage Breaker / Ground-Fault Circuit Breaker (GFCI) for Daikin Equipment
Dear Mr. Crispysonofa,
Daikin Installation Manuals state:
NOTE TO INSTALLER Be sure to install an earth leakage breaker. Failure to install an earth leakage breaker may result in electric shock or fire.


Although the above note is a recognized measure for additional protection, ANSI UL 1995 / CSA C22.2 No. 236 M-05 3rd Edition that is used to certify the safety of your Equipment and the NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code)
does not require it.

Based on the above fact, Intertek (ETL) would have no objection if your equipment is installed without an earth
leakage breaker/GFCI, a standard circuit breaker will be acceptable.

 

[Jraef]

Daikin said "Don't Do It!" They are sending me an email with that information. They state that the information in the manual is left over from units sold over seas and has not been changed yet. It is interesting to find out.


Subject:
Earth leakage Breaker / Ground-Fault Circuit Breaker (GFCI) for Daikin Equipment
Dear Mr. Crispysonofa,
Daikin Installation Manuals state:
NOTE TO INSTALLER Be sure to install an earth leakage breaker. Failure to install an earth leakage breaker may result in electric shock or fire.


Although the above note is a recognized measure for additional protection, ANSI UL 1995 / CSA C22.2 No. 236 M-05 3rd Edition that is used to certify the safety of your Equipment and the NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code)
does not require it.

Based on the above fact, Intertek (ETL) would have no objection if your equipment is installed without an earth
leakage breaker/GFCI, a standard circuit breaker will be acceptable.

There you go. But print that out and have a copy with you when this is inspected, because the AHJ may see that in the manual (especially if the plumber alerts him for some reason) and insist that you follow 110.3 (B).

 

[MAC702]

How hard is it to change your manual?

Let us know what the plumber says. Might have been his first Daikin.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

My first though is: why listen to a plumber about electrical work.
I've had a similar problem with variable speed pumps. The two pole gfi doesn't like unbalanced loads(especially GE). If the fan is being run off one leg, it will trip. If anything is being run of one leg, it will trip.
But why would you want to run an a/c unit off a gfic?

Hmmm... I'm a licensed master plumber and a licensed electrician, would you listen to me? :happyyes:

 

[texie]

Daikin said "Don't Do It!" They are sending me an email with that information. They state that the information in the manual is left over from units sold over seas and has not been changed yet. It is interesting to find out.


Subject:
Earth leakage Breaker / Ground-Fault Circuit Breaker (GFCI) for Daikin Equipment
Dear Mr. Crispysonofa,
Daikin Installation Manuals state:
NOTE TO INSTALLER Be sure to install an earth leakage breaker. Failure to install an earth leakage breaker may result in electric shock or fire.


Although the above note is a recognized measure for additional protection, ANSI UL 1995 / CSA C22.2 No. 236 M-05 3rd Edition that is used to certify the safety of your Equipment and the NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code)
does not require it.

Based on the above fact, Intertek (ETL) would have no objection if your equipment is installed without an earth
leakage breaker/GFCI, a standard circuit breaker will be acceptable.

We had this exact issue come up last April on a job with a large number of these units. After much kicking and screaming we found out that the manual was supposed to be changed to not require GFCI as ETL did not require it. Below is a link to a copy of a letter we received from ETL to reflect this.
Incorrect, unclear, wrong and sometimes NEC violations in manufacturers instructions is something that we have issues with most all of the NRTLs. They all need to do a better job at policing this.

Here is link to the letter: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vt8qpyiwe1hc79n/Letter.pdf?dl=0

 

[Jraef]

How hard is it to change your manual? ...

Been there, done that, it's a lot harder than you might think when you print 100,000 of them at a whack for $2.50 each. The bean counters tell you "We'll have it changed next time around..."

 

[hbiss]

Been there, done that, it's a lot harder than you might think when you print 100,000 of them at a whack for $2.50 each. The bean counters tell you "We'll have it changed next time around..."

Especially when most installers read something like:

"Be sure to install a ground fault circuit interrupter. (One that can handle higher harmonics.)
(This unit uses an inverter. Therefore, a ground fault circuit interrupter capable of handling higher harmonics must be used in order to prevent the ground fault circuit interrupter malfunctioning.)"

and think not only have I never had to do that before, that's really strangely written and where would I even find a GFCI like that? So nobody is going to think twice about it anyway except Mr Plumber who doesn't know harmonics from a harmonica. For him it's real easy to pass the buck on to the sparkie.

-Hal

 

[Jraef]

... For him it's real easy to pass the buck on to the sparkie.

-Hal

I found it odd (as others apparently did) that the Plumber got himself involved to that extent at all... Usually they don't want any involvement in electrical work.

 

[retirede]

Been there, done that, it's a lot harder than you might think when you print 100,000 of them at a whack for $2.50 each. The bean counters tell you "We'll have it changed next time around..."

When I was responsible for product manuals, we would make a 1 page insert to clarify things like this. Not perfect, but kept the beam counters off my butt. We only printed 5000 at a time.

 

[MAC702]

110.3(B):Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling...

Now I'm wondering...

With the very specific legal meanings of the words "listed" and "labeled," does this technically apply to the entire installation manual provided with the equipment, or is there some kind of instructions included to UL (or equivalent) to get the listing, and that's what is being referenced?

 

[gadfly56]

Do you have that reference handy? I'd like to see its exact wording and keep it tabbed.

NEC (2014)

110.3 (B)

Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.

added:
Wow, how late am I! Missed the next page(s) some how.

 

[kwired]

Now I'm wondering...

With the very specific legal meanings of the words "listed" and "labeled," does this technically apply to the entire installation manual provided with the equipment, or is there some kind of instructions included to UL (or equivalent) to get the listing, and that's what is being referenced?

Me too. I have often wondered how some instructions you find out there ever make it past an NRTL evaluation of a product if they are a part of the listing.

 

[crispysonofa]

I just replaced the breaker and fired the unit, works great now. I called the HVAC tech with the info and asked him if he wanted me to forward the email. He did not want the email and said that as long as it passes inspection he is happy with it. He was not a bad guy so I didn't press the issue any further. I guess I learned something from the experience and if I get asked about it in the future I have the documents available to have ground to stand on. I bet we will see some new GFI breaker made especially for split units come out in the next few years and I bet they will cost a pretty penny.

 

[hbiss]

You could use the ones made for Pentair pool pumps...:roll:

-Hal