Deriving 110V power from 220V three wire

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I'm very confused about a common practice here in Nevada, My wife runs a concession trailer and typically goes to municipal venues such as concerts, fairs, etc.. Typically she tells them the power requirements for the concession trailer as a 30A 2p 4 wire L14- 30R plug 220V. We have equipment on board that is 220V and others that are 110V thus the 4 wire requirement. At some events they tie us into their on site lighting distribution system which is 240V 3 wire system. To accomodate the vendors they rent distributon boxes for everyone to plug into. They use the ground as the neutral for the 110V breakdown and in my opinion eliminate the safety by eliminating the grounding safety net. I believe they also render the function of the required GFCI protection pert near useless. They also do not modify any of the service equipment at their main distribution panel, I'm sure somewhere along the line the neutral and ground are bonded but isn't this a little to old school for modern code requirements? My wife uses a trailer which has it's own equipment ground but what about the vendors who are plugging into receptacles and running equipment off the GFCI circuits provided assuming they have ground protection from surge and ground faults? What am I missing here and what specific NEC code is not being followed? I sure would appreciate any input this just doesn't smell right on many levels and I would like to help them correct this issue before someone gets killed.
Thanks
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
I don't think it would render the gfi useless, but using the ground as a neutral is not good, if for some reason the ground gets disconnected such as being burnt in two or a bad connection which in turn would make anything connected to it "live" because the neutral current will try finding an alternate path. Since everything is bonded to this also, it could make the frames and exteriors of the concession trailers live also. The exception to this is if the power distribution box has a transformer that creates its own neutral on the load side.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
On the three wire systems I have seen, there is no ground, two hots and a neutral only.
 

jumper

Senior Member
On the three wire systems I have seen, there is no ground, two hots and a neutral only.

That is fine for the service conductors, or feeders to a 240V load, but illegal to a distribution box or such with 120V to Neutral loads with an EGC tied to the neutral down stream of the service disconnect and GES.

I do not think it the OPs situation is kosher.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
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Occupation
Engineer/Technician
That is fine for the service conductors, or feeders to a 240V load, but illegal to a distribution box or such with 120V to Neutral loads with an EGC tied to the neutral down stream of the service disconnect and GES.

I do not think it the OPs situation is kosher.

I agree totally, tying in her tralier with a three wire system is wrong. I just meant that they weren't using the ground as neutral because there probably isn't one in the three wire system they were providing.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
We hardly have enough info yet.

At least three possibilities that I can think of

1) 208Y/120 system that they are using the EGC as the neutral.

2) 230 delta system that has no neutral so the use of the 'ground' as neutral means nothing really, they are just putting the loads in series with each other and the voltage will be all over the place.

3) 208Y/120 service and they are using the MGN as neutral which is fine.
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
Like Bob stated we need some clarification on what type of system you have. You've mentioned 220 volts, 110 volts and 240 volts which is leading to the confusion. You also said 3 wire, 240 volt supply, what does that mean exactly?
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
We hardly have enough info yet.

At least three possibilities that I can think of

1) 208Y/120 system that they are using the EGC as the neutral.

2) 230 delta system that has no neutral so the use of the 'ground' as neutral means nothing really, they are just putting the loads in series with each other and the voltage will be all over the place.

3) 208Y/120 service and they are using the MGN as neutral which is fine.

I was thinking about single phase 120/240 4 wire (two hots/neutral/ ground) and three wire (two hots/neutral).. Maybe I missed something...
 
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Clarification of original question and situation

Clarification of original question and situation

I really intended to state the following conditions they (the event) are distributing 240V power comprised of 2 - 120V legs "A" and "B" from the service which has a neutral "C" , so it's probably a 120/240V 4 wire delta single phase. At the distribution junction #5 pull box that they have connected in the vendor service distribution box,, there's only 2 - 120V legs and a ground that run back to the main. It is strictly intended to operate 240V load only no neutral is present or required for that purpose. However they went in my opinion a little " Old school" by being able to derive 120V branch circuits for the vendor connection by using the Ground , thereby energizing the ground back to the neutral / ground bond at the main panel. There's no seperate ground in the distribution, no ground rod, no transformer in the distribution box creating it's own neutral. I had to change my 4 wire L14-30P plug (30Amp 125/250V rated 3P 4 wire) out to a three wire L6-30P (30Amp 250V 3P 3 wire) eliminating the ground and connecting the neutral wire to the ground screw on the plug, essentially cheating my panel inside the trailer to think that it's getting 2 120V branch feeds, which it is but my contention and question is "IS THIS SAFE"? and if not how many specific NEC violations have just been committed? Please site specific code article to win the booby prize.
Thanks ,
sorry for the confusion on the first pass and for potentially the second:D
 
One of the potential dangers

One of the potential dangers

If one of the vendor trailers has a broken equipment ground and a short or ground fault since there's no other ground in this set up wouldn't that potentially energize the the trailer and create a shock hazard?
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I really intended to state the following conditions they (the event) are distributing 240V power comprised of 2 - 120V legs "A" and "B" from the service which has a neutral "C" , so it's probably a 120/240V 4 wire delta single phase. At the distribution junction #5 pull box that they have connected in the vendor service distribution box,, there's only 2 - 120V legs and a ground that run back to the main. It is strictly intended to operate 240V load only no neutral is present or required for that purpose. However they went in my opinion a little " Old school" by being able to derive 120V branch circuits for the vendor connection by using the Ground , thereby energizing the ground back to the neutral / ground bond at the main panel. There's no separate ground in the distribution, no ground rod, no transformer in the distribution box creating it's own neutral. I had to change my 4 wire L14-30P plug (30Amp 125/250V rated 3P 4 wire) out to a three wire L6-30P (30Amp 250V 3P 3 wire) eliminating the ground and connecting the neutral wire to the ground screw on the plug, essentially cheating my panel inside the trailer to think that it's getting 2 120V branch feeds, which it is but my contention and question is "IS THIS SAFE"? and if not how many specific NEC violations have just been committed? Please site specific code article to win the booby prize.
Thanks ,
sorry for the confusion on the first pass and for potentially the second:D

In reading the above, heres is what could happen:

since you no longer have the EGC from the trailer that is connected to a path back to the neutral there is no fault current path to operate a breaker in the event of a fault, even if you were to install a ground rod it would not allow enough current to open a breaker, so now as it is if anything in your trailer were to fault to ground your whole trailer would become hot or 120 volts to earth, this could injure or kill someone maybe a child who might be barefoot, there is no way I would leave this as it is, as you could be accountable and be possibly found partly at fault if something should occur!!!

The second thing that could happen is the loss of the neutral/EGC, now you have a floating neutral problem, since the neutral maintains the 120 volts between the 240 volt hots, it can no longer do this so you end up with two series 120 volt circuits across 240 volts, if one side of this has a heavier load the voltage on that side will decrease but the other side will increase, so one side might have 40 volts and the other side will have 200 volts, something will burn up and it could get expensive, but loosing the neutral is always a possibility in all wiring systems but there is a side item that was mentioned but because you didn't bond the EGC from the trailer to the neutral in the receptacle then it is of little value, but what they were talking about is if you would have bonded the EGC so there was a fault path for shorts, then if you lost the neutral since the trailer and everything is bonded to this EGC the voltage drop on the neutral would have also been on all that is bonded to the EGC and again the above first part of this post would apply as you would not only have a voltage problem and damage would happen but you would also have had a dangerous shock hazard.

Sorry for such a long post but I'm trying to convey how dangerous this is, and if this is an event where children will be at, let me ask this would you want to live with the idea that this could kill a child!!!, you need to get something done, even if it takes going to the state, wiring like this is dangerous and needs to be stopped!!!!

I'm not aiming the above at you as it is the ones running the event who is cheap ping out on doing this the right way and the city for not inspecting it to make sure it gets done right.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
to add to the above post, you need to have from the distribution panel two hots a neutral and a separate EGC, anything less will put you and others in danger and force a liability that could even be held criminally against you or your wife if or should someone be hurt or killed, I cant express this enough.
 
Follow up

Follow up

I couldn't agree more that this is potentially lethal under the wrong circumstances. I can't believe that the JHA ( Jurisdiction having authority) that breaks my nuts daily on my jobs about ridiculous issues is doing this at a public forum in the main convention and pavillion center. Just as a side note - my wife just called me and said that one of the distribution boxes blew up and they lost power, but she moved her hook up to another distribution box. This is the exact scenario I tried to warn them about is the unbalanced load on the energized ground could be all over the place and the voltages being delivered to the vendors equipment is equally unstable. I actually got into an arguement with the head City electrican for public facilities who said I was full of Hooey! I told him I be the first one on the court house steps the day they kill someone to testify against them. he refused to change the hook up or to consider it a problem. I don't think I will let my wife work another venue in this jurisdiction.
 
request for specific code artical

request for specific code artical

I really am having diffuculty putting together code specific article reference to explain to the City why there situation is a problem and verbalizing how to correct it citing specific code is all they want to hear before they will act or change their practice for future venues. If anyone is so well versed that they can throw me a carrot or the proverbial crumb to follow that is all I require. I'm trying to prevent what I think is a potentially lethal situation and as previously mentioned in thread I would hate to see anyone get hurt.

Thank you great sages of the blue flame:eek:
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I really am having diffuculty putting together code specific article reference to explain to the City why there situation is a problem and verbalizing how to correct it citing specific code is all they want to hear before they will act or change their practice for future venues. If anyone is so well versed that they can throw me a carrot or the proverbial crumb to follow that is all I require. I'm trying to prevent what I think is a potentially lethal situation and as previously mentioned in thread I would hate to see anyone get hurt.

Thank you great sages of the blue flame:eek:

well that part is easy:

250.4(A) Ground Fault Path
250.24(A)(5) neutral not to be grounded after the main bonding jumper
250.142 again Grounded conductor not to be grounded after the main bonding jumper.

and this was the head electrician who doesnt see this danger?????
Is this in LV, NV.?

Edited to add that do a good reading of article 525 and pay attention to 525.30 through .32
 
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Thanks for input

Thanks for input

Thanks Hurk27 , I appreciate the input. Yes this is the second year in a row at two different events that they have done this same scenario that I was present for. the first time they had generators on site but ran 50 Amp three wire distribution in the same manner, by energizing or eleiminating essentially the ground protection of the circuit. The Voltage was so unstable that vendors equpment was failing, people with TV displays in their booths had so much ground loop interference that their pictures were horrible. i changed my service out after the City Electrician left and wired directly to the generator and land my full 4 wire connection as it was set up to do. It wasn't long before word spread and every vendor was down at the generator wiring their service in themselves. Some of the vendors who did not follow suit lost some of their equipment. This is in the City of Henderson south of the Las Vegas proper at their main Pavillion events center. Their disregard for the safety of the participants is shameful. Thank you for the code reference, but there's something else I'm trying to kick loose from the back of my head that hasn't been mentioned yet, I'm sure it will pop out eventually.

Thank you much!
 
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