Dishonesty, Why Does it Pay?

[MarkyMarkNC]

Yep, both companies were caught at the same time, as well as a third company whose construction side went bankrupt a few years ago. At the time, there were no other local companies besides those three that could handle bigger jobs, and companies from outside the area weren't really interested in bidding stuff around here. All three companies would collude on all the large State government bids, and then take turns "winning" with the low bid. After they were caught, all three companies were not able to bid on State jobs until I believe the early 90's.

In a way it didn't pay, as in the long run, it gave smaller local companies a chance to grow and take on market share from the big boys, and provided a window of opportunity for larger companies outside the area to come in and add to the competition. Not to mention the fact that three guys went to jail.

 

[hillbilly1]

On a much smaller scale I knew of a HVAC contractor that also played electrician, He did all of the work at the county owned Hospital and Nursing home. He would shove screwdrivers into disconnects so he could charge to replace them, kick outlets until they shorted out to find a circuit, then charge the hospital for a new one. He was drinking buddies with the Administrator, so all of his invoices would get approved!

 

[jmellc]

If it makes you feel better there has been dishonesty as long as there have been possessions.

I know that, no question. I just question why public policy allows an offender to ever bid a public job again. Again, most of us would not call a plumber, painter or roofer back if we caught him ripping us off. The taxpayers get ripped time & again from such things.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I know that, no question. I just question why public policy allows an offender to ever bid a public job again. Again, most of us would not call a plumber, painter or roofer back if we caught him ripping us off. The taxpayers get ripped time & again from such things.

That's why they call it politics instead of business.

 

[jmellc]

That's why they call it politics instead of business.

Ronald Reagan said that politics was the 2nd oldest profession but often had an amazing resemblance to the 1st.

Cowboy, it's amazing. In between our fights, we often land on the same page. Isn't this forum great?

I do not specifically go after public projects & will not take stimulus $ of any kind. If a public agency calls, I will do work for them unless I think it is a boondoggle project. I will charge same price as to anyone else, maybe a small discount since part of the tax $ is/was mine to begin with. Too many vendors of all kinds see public business as a cash cow to be milked to the inth degree.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Ronald Reagan said that politics was the 2nd oldest profession but often had an amazing resemblance to the 1st.

Cowboy, it's amazing. In between our fights, we often land on the same page. Isn't this forum great?

I do not specifically go after public projects & will not take stimulus $ of any kind. If a public agency calls, I will do work for them unless I think it is a boondoggle project. I will charge same price as to anyone else, maybe a small discount since part of the tax $ is/was mine to begin with. Too many vendors of all kinds see public business as a cash cow to be milked to the inth degree.

Welcome to the dark side.

I agree with everything you just said. The one bad side to public works projects, is that if you have a heads up construction corridinator, he can really put the screws to you. Three companies went bankrupt working on our new police station, they came in low bid and figured that they were going to make it up on extras. What they found out was that many of the things they thought were extras were actually deep in the spec book or somewhere on the plans.

 

[cadpoint]

I've been ripped off by both large and small local EC's!

I've also been ripped off local Architect and Engineers!

Glory Days...
Get over it!

 

[jmellc]

Welcome to the dark side.

I agree with everything you just said. The one bad side to public works projects, is that if you have a heads up construction corridinator, he can really put the screws to you. Three companies went bankrupt working on our new police station, they came in low bid and figured that they were going to make it up on extras. What they found out was that many of the things they thought were extras were actually deep in the spec book or somewhere on the plans.

I long to see people come to the table, each showing their full hand. Nothing is gained in the long run by deception & trickery. Customer states exactly what he wants, contractor examines the complete job & bids what he honestly thinks he can do it for. All specs clearly written out, price does not change unless customer changes the job somehow.

 

[growler]

I long to see people come to the table, each showing their full hand. Nothing is gained in the long run by deception & trickery. Customer states exactly what he wants, contractor examines the complete job & bids what he honestly thinks he can do it for. All specs clearly written out, price does not change unless customer changes the job somehow.

I'd like to build the world a home
and furnish it with love.
Grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves.
I like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony.

Ain't going to happen.

 

[jmellc]

I'd like to build the world a home
and furnish it with love.
Grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves.
I like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony.

Ain't going to happen.

I got past that way of thinking a long time ago. Big difference between honest business and flower child thinking.

A good many problems we discuss here came about because of dishonesty. Personally, I'm glad I never learned to be a crook.

 

[growler]

I got past that way of thinking a long time ago. Big difference between honest business and flower child thinking.

The problem with honest business is that everyone has their own idea about just what it means to be honest.

The flower child thing is just one extreme. The other extreme is the idea that if I'm not in prison I must be honest. Most people are somewhere in the middle but lean in one direction or the other.

If you ask most people if they are honest they will answer in the affirmative. They are honest as they see things.

When those guys were rigging bids I'll bet they found ways to justify that in their own minds. We keep the money local, we help the local community, we provide jobs, we donate to charity.

And most important , we won't get caught. :angel:

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'd like to build the world a home
and furnish it with love.
Grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves.
I like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony.

Ain't going to happen.

*cracks open a cold coke, and passes it over....*

that's about as close as you are going to get...... ;-/

 

[Fulthrotl]

Welcome to the dark side.

I agree with everything you just said. The one bad side to public works projects, is that if you have a heads up construction corridinator, he can really put the screws to you. Three companies went bankrupt working on our new police station, they came in low bid and figured that they were going to make it up on extras. What they found out was that many of the things they thought were extras were actually deep in the spec book or somewhere on the plans.

it goes both ways..... i was project manager on a development project, green book, and we had a dewatering deal as a line item, as we were digging in
contaminated soil, so we were getting if memory serves 24 cents a gallon to carbon filter and test.... and the city, and it's management company, instead
of going standard green book, which allows for renegotiation of the item if the quantity specified deviates more than 25% from the line item amount,
stipulated that item was not negotiable, figuring we'd have to spend $100k for a treatment setup, and not get any water.....

but they used a 10 year old water table survey, 'cause they were too lazy and cheap to check the site..... the project manager for the city smirked when
he told us he figured we'd not even get 150k gallons off the whole project...... figured he'd sucker punched us...

when i left, i had documented and certified over 24,000,000 gallons..... and there were still two 6" pumps going..... the profit on the water was about 7 million.
took 5 years and a lawsuit to collect it.. it was finally just resolved about 3 months ago.

 

[cowboyjwc]

it goes both ways..... i was project manager on a development project, green book, and we had a dewatering deal as a line item, as we were digging in
contaminated soil, so we were getting if memory serves 24 cents a gallon to carbon filter and test.... and the city, and it's management company, instead
of going standard green book, which allows for renegotiation of the item if the quantity specified deviates more than 25% from the line item amount,
stipulated that item was not negotiable, figuring we'd have to spend $100k for a treatment setup, and not get any water.....

but they used a 10 year old water table survey, 'cause they were too lazy and cheap to check the site..... the project manager for the city smirked when
he told us he figured we'd not even get 150k gallons off the whole project...... figured he'd sucker punched us...

when i left, i had documented and certified over 24,000,000 gallons..... and there were still two 6" pumps going..... the profit on the water was about 7 million.
took 5 years and a lawsuit to collect it.. it was finally just resolved about 3 months ago.

No one said that people who run cities are the sharpest tools in the shed.

They got plans approved for an expansion on our city hall. People in the crystal palace thought that it should run around $1.5M, I think the low bid was something like $3.5M. Opps.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

It's a little sad. Bought a X-mas tree this weekend then stopped at Lowes for a few things. We had to leave a family member in the truck to discourage scum from stealing the tree.

As we walked into Lowes my son asks me "Hey Dad, how many bad people are there in the world compared to the good?"

I figured it was probably a 50/50 split. :happysad:

 

[ggunn]

It's a little sad. Bought a X-mas tree this weekend then stopped at Lowes for a few things. We had to leave a family member in the truck to discourage scum from stealing the tree.

As we walked into Lowes my son asks me "Hey Dad, how many bad people are there in the world compared to the good?"

I figured it was probably a 50/50 split. :happysad:

It's kind of like asking how many stupid people there are in the world. 50% of people have an IQ of less than 100.

Have you ever watched "Idiocracy"? It's a funny and frightening movie.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

It's kind of like asking how many stupid people there are in the world. 50% of people have an IQ of less than 100.

Have you ever watched "Idiocracy"? It's a funny and frightening movie.

Awesome movie. Very funny yet depressingly plausible.

 

[growler]

It's a little sad. Bought a X-mas tree this weekend then stopped at Lowes for a few things. We had to leave a family member in the truck to discourage scum from stealing the tree.

As we walked into Lowes my son asks me "Hey Dad, how many bad people are there in the world compared to the good?"

I figured it was probably a 50/50 split. :happysad:

First let me say that you may be right about the 50/50 split but I like to be more optimistic.

I'm sure it would be hard to find a totally rightous man. We all have certain flaws but I don't think there is really a very large percentage of the population that's bad. The problem we have is that it doesn't take many bad apples to spoil the whole barrel.

I doubt if there is one person in a hundred that would steal a Christmas tree but with five hundred people in the area that still leaves a few that would.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

First let me say that you may be right about the 50/50 split but I like to be more optimistic.

I'm sure it would be hard to find a totally rightous man. We all have certain flaws but I don't think there is really a very large percentage of the population that's bad. The problem we have is that it doesn't take many bad apples to spoil the whole barrel.

I doubt if there is one person in a hundred that would steal a Christmas tree but with five hundred people in the area that still leaves a few that would.

Hey I would never consider myself "righteous" but when explaining a good or bad person to my son I try to keep it simple. My take on it is if your are willing to take from someone or hurt someone to get something you want then your bad.

BTW did you see this rash of "smash and grab" thefts on the news? Hey lets go down the local mall parking lot and smash in someones back windshield and steal the X-mas gifts they left in the back seat. That sounds like a good time.

 

[PEDRO ESCOVILLA]

dishonesty never pays. regardless of what you may see and or think. integrity, like happiness, is an inside and outside job. the only thing necessary for bad deeds to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing.