Electric Arc Furnace Electrode Size and AC to DC Conversion

[spikes2020]

Instead of battery bank, is it not possible to use more economical capacitor banks to meet peak demand if it is practical?

I think its about energy density when it comes to capacitors. I need 20 mins of continual power for about 1/3 the furnace. Then the bank can charge for 10 min for up to 2/3 the energy of the furnace. This would reduce our load on the utility by 10MW. Cutting our demand from the utility by this much would almost pay for the battery in 2-3 years as of now. In 5 to 10 years when battery prices come down, and we get better technology, i am sure i could get the entire project payback in the required 3-5 year window.

 

[spikes2020]

How big was it physically?

It was about 10-12 40' shipping containers, if i remember correctly. But they are simply tanks filled with liquid, thus making them easily stack-able.

I am sure something else may be better than a liquid battery in the future but there are many energy storage ideas out there.

Worst case micro turbines are also a good clipping idea if you have cheap natural gas. Talking about 2-3 cents per kwh.

 

[Sahib]

I think its about energy density when it comes to capacitors. I need 20 mins of continual power for about 1/3 the furnace. Then the bank can charge for 10 min for up to 2/3 the energy of the furnace. This would reduce our load on the utility by 10MW. Cutting our demand from the utility by this much would almost pay for the battery in 2-3 years as of now. In 5 to 10 years when battery prices come down, and we get better technology, i am sure i could get the entire project payback in the required 3-5 year window.

Sorry, I can't believe your proposal would really result in saving because batteries would be worn out and need frequent replacement. A complete cost analysis may reveal negative pay back........

 

[spikes2020]

Sorry, I can't believe your proposal would really result in saving because batteries would be worn out and need frequent replacement. A complete cost analysis may reveal negative pay back........

Liquid flow batteries do not wear out. In theory they have infinite number of cycles. They also have 100% cycle depth and can hold a charge for long periods of time without any leakage. Now pumps and the plates inside the battery may need to be replaced, but this is much cheaper than a normal battery, as it is designed for this.

Thanks for your concern though. Again in 5-10 years battery technology will improve and increase cycle times and charge times. This is one technology that has done that but requires pumps and mechanical devices.

This is just one of these flow type batteries. Different companies use different chemicals, each with their own storage density and cost.
https://redflow.com/applications/renewables-integration/

 

[Sahib]

Liquid flow batteries do not wear out. In theory they have infinite number of cycles. They also have 100% cycle depth and can hold a charge for long periods of time without any leakage. Now pumps and the plates inside the battery may need to be replaced, but this is much cheaper than a normal battery, as it is designed for this.

Thanks for your concern though. Again in 5-10 years battery technology will improve and increase cycle times and charge times. This is one technology that has done that but requires pumps and mechanical devices.

This is just one of these flow type batteries. Different companies use different chemicals, each with their own storage density and cost.
https://redflow.com/applications/renewables-integration/

Well, the performance of new technology battery or rechargeable fuel cell superior. But what about cost compared to conventional utility power source? Please provide calculation details for any pay back.

 

[zbang]

Well, the performance of new technology battery or rechargeable fuel cell superior. But what about cost compared to conventional utility power source? Please provide calculation details for any pay back.

Why? He's looking to the future and all costs will have changed. I wouldn't even do any real ROI calcs for something I'm not planning in the next year or two.

 

[Sahib]

Why? He's looking to the future and all costs will have changed. I wouldn't even do any real ROI calcs for something I'm not planning in the next year or two.

Of course, he could start it right now if the pay back for the project is favourable. That is why he was encouraged to do the cost analysis for a realistic action plan.

 

[Besoeker]

Liquid flow batteries do not wear out. In theory they have infinite number of cycles. They also have 100% cycle depth and can hold a charge for long periods of time without any leakage. Now pumps and the plates inside the battery may need to be replaced, but this is much cheaper than a normal battery, as it is designed for this.

Thanks for your concern though. Again in 5-10 years battery technology will improve and increase cycle times and charge times. This is one technology that has done that but requires pumps and mechanical devices.

This is just one of these flow type batteries. Different companies use different chemicals, each with their own storage density and cost.
https://redflow.com/applications/renewables-integration/

From your link:

Providing as much as 600 kWh of energy

 

[spikes2020]

From your link:

Thanks for the quote... don't see what it's relevance is, and we seem to be getting side tracked as people fight for me to preform a ROI on something that would waste a lot sales peoples time as we don't even have a DC furnace.

You can also get customized batteries if you want to spend that kind of money.

 

[Besoeker]

Thanks for the quote... don't see what it's relevance is,

Scale.

 

[spikes2020]

Scale.

That is the limit of one of their pe-engineered units. If you ask for a custom built one to size it could be much larger, almost any size. Also this is just one company, there are 3 or 4 doing this type of battery...