Electrons - when they move from Atom to Atom - where do they end up?

[johngary]

I had a recent question posed by a student - when the free electron on the outer valance of the copper atom is freed when power is generated by a generator - what happens to it once the produce current is consumed - Or is it possible to deplete the electrons in the copper wire? Don't know the answer so if you think its dumb - I am asking a smart question since I don't know the answer.

Thank Sparky of the North

 

[davidaengelhart]

First of all, I am surprised there is no "Theory" forum in existence that this would be an appropriate inquiry for.
To answer the question; they just keep going in a never ending cycle...think of it...as I believe you said...."the wiring does not deplete...".

 

[nakulak]

charge is neither consumed or destroyed, it is only moved around, per the laws of thermodynamics. Once the force that was applied to move the charges around is removed, the natural entropy prevails. (try a physics forum for more specifics on this)

 

[kwired]

I had a recent question posed by a student - when the free electron on the outer valance of the copper atom is freed when power is generated by a generator - what happens to it once the produce current is consumed - Or is it possible to deplete the electrons in the copper wire? Don't know the answer so if you think its dumb - I am asking a smart question since I don't know the answer.

Thank Sparky of the North

The electrons are not consumed they just transfer energy from one place to another. The energy is what is consumed.

Some debate whether or not the electrons actually "flow" or if they are just "bumped".

This would be similar to a wave in the ocean. The water transfers a wave of energy but really does not have much movement of water itself.

Whether they actually flow or not, remember a circuit is a loop, if they do flow they do not disappear they just end up somewhere else in the loop.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Copper has 29 electrons and one valence electron. When a free electron(1) knocks the valence electron(2) free from it's orbit (bump theory), the electron(1) transfers it's energy to the second electron(2). The first electron settles into orbit, making the second electron the free electron. Electrons are never depleted, they are replaced.

Think billiard balls for energy transfer.

Another question... where does the very first free electron come from when electricity is produced by a generator? If all the electrons in a dead wire are neutral, what is the very first thing that happens to make electricity? A free electron has to come from somewhere, where and how is it "stripped" from another copper atom to start the process of energy transfer?

 

[GUNNING]

Magic smoke, when it leave everything stops.

Magic smoke, when it leave everything stops.

In AC the potential moves back and forth at 60 hz. The potential is created when the polarity of the magnets on the generator cycle from pole to pole. Hence no loss of electrons just push pull.

In DC it is created from a chemical action stripping electrons from high electronegative atom source to less electronegative atom source. It gets weaker as oxides build up between this boundary in the battery of dissimilar metals.

 

[K8MHZ]

Copper has 29 electrons and one valence electron. When a free electron(1) knocks the valence electron(2) free from it's orbit (bump theory), the electron(1) transfers it's energy to the second electron(2). The first electron settles into orbit, making the second electron the free electron. Electrons are never depleted, they are replaced.

Think billiard balls for energy transfer.

Another question... where does the very first free electron come from when electricity is produced by a generator? If all the electrons in a dead wire are neutral, what is the very first thing that happens to make electricity? A free electron has to come from somewhere, where and how is it "stripped" from another copper atom to start the process of energy transfer?

Another question, is the displacement a quantum leap, or does the electron actually occupy the space in between atoms as it travels?

 

[fmtjfw]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current

Metals

A solid conductive metal contains mobile, or free electrons, originating in the conduction electrons. These electrons are bound to the metal lattice but no longer to an individual atom. Even with no external electric field applied, these electrons move about randomly due to thermal energy but, on average, there is zero net current within the metal. Given a surface through which a metal wire passes, electrons move in both directions across the surface at an equal rate. As George Gamow put in his science-popularizing book, One, Two, Three...Infinity (1947), "The metallic substances differ from all other materials by the fact that the outer shells of their atoms are bound rather loosely, and often let one of their electrons go free. Thus the interior of a metal is filled up with a large number of unattached electrons that travel aimlessly around like a crowd of displaced persons. When a metal wire is subjected to electric force applied on its opposite ends, these free electrons rush in the direction of the force, thus forming what we call an electric current."

When a metal wire is connected across the two terminals of a DC voltage source such as a battery, the source places an electric field across the conductor. The moment contact is made, the free electrons of the conductor are forced to drift toward the positive terminal under the influence of this field. The free electrons are therefore the charge carrier in a typical solid conductor.

 

[Smart $]

Another question, is the displacement a quantum leap, or does the electron actually occupy the space in between atoms as it travels?

If memory serves me well, and using a simplified model, the solid-matter electron orbits overlap. Think in 3D rather than using the typical 2D representation of an atom. So there is no "space" between atoms of a solid... there is only space between neuclei.

 

[Smart $]

Copper has 29 electrons and one valence electron. When a free electron(1) knocks the valence electron(2) free from it's orbit (bump theory), the electron(1) transfers it's energy to the second electron(2). The first electron settles into orbit, making the second electron the free electron. Electrons are never depleted, they are replaced.

Think billiard balls for energy transfer.

Another question... where does the very first free electron come from when electricity is produced by a generator? If all the electrons in a dead wire are neutral, what is the very first thing that happens to make electricity? A free electron has to come from somewhere, where and how is it "stripped" from another copper atom to start the process of energy transfer?

An electric field.

A contradiction to the bump theory is exhibited by a capacitor.

 

[Hv&Lv]

If memory serves me well, and using a simplified model, the solid-matter electron orbits overlap. Think in 3D rather than using the typical 2D representation of an atom. So there is no "space" between atoms of a solid... there is only space between neuclei.

I think alot of the confusion comes from the simplified models showing an atom with the shells being just like a solar system where the planets revolve around a star...

 

[K8MHZ]

If memory serves me well, and using a simplified model, the solid-matter electron orbits overlap. Think in 3D rather than using the typical 2D representation of an atom. So there is no "space" between atoms of a solid... there is only space between neuclei.

I seem to remember that from high school as 'electron cloud theory'.

 

[K8MHZ]

I think alot of the confusion comes from the simplified models showing an atom with the shells being just like a solar system where the planets revolve around a star...

Ah, the Bohr model.

I have always been suspect of it as an explanation rather than a discovery.

 

[Jraef]

The electrons don't really move much, and they are always replaced by one right behind it. Think along these lines:

 

[GUNNING]

Magic smoke and what it is made of

Magic smoke and what it is made of

The cloud theory of electron shells is a statistical model of what is believed to be thought the best bet of where the electrons will reside. They float where they want replacing one electron in a shell with another and vice versa. The less filled the shell, the less complete the shell, there exists more of a chance of loosing an electron or two to another atom. These outer shells are called valence electrons. The metal grouping in the periodic chart is kind of centered and have unique properties. That is how elements were originally devined, by common characteristics. Missing elements were deduced by missing qualities in the next element in line. Metals have unique properties. Luster, is one I believe, conductive is another.
Conductivity is that property which allows that little electron to pass from the outer shell of the atom to another. With this passing also goes a charge. The reason it passes is because the bond between the central nucleus of the atom and the outer "ring" or "Valence shell" is incomplete and the electron is stripped away to complete a shell of another element placing a charge on the atom so that it will go in search of completing its shell. With the passing of this electron goes a quality of the original atom. It changes its characteristics, it becomes a metallic ion because it is missing that little electron charge. Sometimes it is missing two which makes it all that more attractive to elements with opposite charges.

Chem 101

 

[charlie b]

A contradiction to the bump theory is exhibited by a capacitor.

Not at all. A different thing is happening on the two opposing plates of a capacitor (i.e., different then what happens along a wire), but it does not contradict the description of what happens in the wire. As electrons build up on one plate, they create an electic field in the space between the plates. Put more simply, an electron sitting on the opposite plate see a vast great number of electrons building up on the first plate, and (according to the "like charges repel" rule) will feel a push. They will travel away from that plate, leaving a positive net charge behind on that plate. As a result, you get a negatively charged plate on one side and a positively charged plate on the other.

 

[Smart $]

Not at all. A different thing is happening on the two opposing plates of a capacitor (i.e., different then what happens along a wire), but it does not contradict the description of what happens in the wire. As electrons build up on one plate, they create an electic field in the space between the plates. Put more simply, an electron sitting on the opposite plate see a vast great number of electrons building up on the first plate, and (according to the "like charges repel" rule) will feel a push. They will travel away from that plate, leaving a positive net charge behind on that plate. As a result, you get a negatively charged plate on one side and a positively charged plate on the other.

Exactly. Electrons leave the positive plate, yet there are no electrons "bumping" them off of it, none replacing them (at that moment).

 

[mike_kilroy]

RESISTAnce & superconducting?

RESISTAnce & superconducting?

time to bring in resistance and how superconductors move the little critters easier?

 

[pfalcon]

If anyone could actually have proven any of the foregoing theories then all those super-physicists of the past, like Einstein, would long ago have been out of work.

1> Electrons are particles. (Most common at this time)
so electrons carry the charge in the appropriate direction, bump into another electron and pass the charge.

2> Electrons are charges extended in space. (Einstein's favorite I believe)
so electrons rub elbows and transmit the charge like a bucket brigade.

3> Electrons are standing waves. (A new one)
so electrons get juiced up, couple resonantly with the next in line, and pass the energy.

In any event, the electrons don't actually seem to go anywhere, the different theories all come back to:
Receive energy (boosting the orbit?)
Connect to another electron (bump? resonate? arc?)
Deplete energy (reducing the orbit?)

 

[Phil Corso]

Responding to johngary's original question, "What happens to...?

Depending on enegization duration, the electron will have moved some micro-inches to 10ths of inches!


Regards, Phil Corso