GC awarded with my number, now wants to negotiate

[Lectricbota]

All that means is after the first time you do that, you never get my best price up front. I will be leaving a lot of room for you to try that. In fact, often after the first time, there is no second time.

Took the words right of my keyboard.

 

[kwired]

Going from Trane to Carrier is a downgrade in my opinion.

They are made in the same plant and out of the same components. As I said earlier, I worked on a project where the units showed up with Trane labels on the outside, inside were Carrier labels to place over the Trane labels if you were a Carrier dealer instead of a Trane dealer.

 

[cdslotz]

GC: What about UL Master label in 26 41 01 para 3.x.x??

You waited 6 months to ask that question?

If you have found a sure fire way to avoid these types of conversations, please share the magic words you use to pull the average head out of the average orifice.

Easy....thoroughly scope your subs......saying "do you have all of div 26 covered" and then "here's your contract" is NOT being thorough....lol

What GC is giving you an itemized work list as a scope?

All of them that I work for....usually when I send my detailed scope to him the day before bid, he will call and go over everything in my scope, and anything I may have missed

 

[growler]

How is estimating in Missouri any different than anywhere else?

Kind of makes you wonder. Don't large companies in Missouri bid work in other states and don't out of state contractors bid work in Missouri ?

Here at least half ( that's how it looks to me) of the large projects are done by out of state contractors. I would assume there were even some out of state bids for the job Brant is talking about.

 

[kwired]

Kind of makes you wonder. Don't large companies in Missouri bid work in other states and don't out of state contractors bid work in Missouri ?

Here at least half ( that's how it looks to me) of the large projects are done by out of state contractors. I would assume there were even some out of state bids for the job Brant is talking about.

Sounds like if job is not in SL or KC, the licensing and inspections are sort of a lesser issue and would attract contractors from outside the area to bid.

 

[peter d]

They are made in the same plant and out of the same components. As I said earlier, I worked on a project where the units showed up with Trane labels on the outside, inside were Carrier labels to place over the Trane labels if you were a Carrier dealer instead of a Trane dealer.

Trane and Carrier? I think you're confused. They are separate entities entirely. Carrier is owned by UTC, Trane by Ingersoll Rand. Unless they somehow joined forces in the last week, I think you are mistaken. They are fierce competitors.

Now, Carrier does have many brand names in its lineup - Bryant, Payne, Heil, Tempstar, etc. Often a basic unit made in the Carrier factory is shipped with no name tag and the installer puts on the right name tag depending on what dealership they hold. This might be what you're thinking of.

 

[kwired]

Trane and Carrier? I think you're confused. They are separate entities entirely. Carrier is owned by UTC, Trane by Ingersoll Rand. Unless they somehow joined forces in the last week, I think you are mistaken. They are fierce competitors.

Now, Carrier does have many brand names in its lineup - Bryant, Payne, Heil, Tempstar, etc. Often a basic unit made in the Carrier factory is shipped with no name tag and the installer puts on the right name tag depending on what dealership they hold. This might be what you're thinking of.

More I think about it I think it was maybe American Standard labels instead of Carrier labels they pulled out of the units and placed over the Trane labels. American Standard is also an Ingersoll-Rand brand. Logo is somewhat similar to Carrier and may have caused me some confusion.

 

[peter d]

More I think about it I think it was maybe American Standard labels instead of Carrier labels they pulled out of the units and placed over the Trane labels. American Standard is also an Ingersoll-Rand brand. Logo is somewhat similar to Carrier and may have caused me some confusion.

That makes sense.

 

[gadfly56]

I guess I do not understand what you are getting at? My whole point has been how important it is to review and revise the scope prior to boots on the ground.

GC: Scope is all of Division 26. You have that correct EC?
EC: Yep, got it all. No problem.
GC: Ok here is your sub-contract for all of Div26
EC 6 months later: Ok. all done
GC: What about UL Master label in 26 41 01 para 3.x.x??
EC: oh we must not have caught that or show me where I included that on our proposal or my personal favorite, Ive been in business for 40 years and we never do that way but here is my price to do it now that I have read the contract documents.
GC: Now what?? Pull bond, sue or eat it and finish the project.

If you have found a sure fire way to avoid these types of conversations, please share the magic words you use to pull the average head out of the average orifice.

What GC is giving you an itemized work list as a scope? I think we are talking about projects on a whole different scale.

On more that one occasion we've seen checklists for bids that basically run down the divisions one by one where you had to check the box and initial next to it. If someone pencil whips that list they deserve what they get. My sympathies are with the employees for having such dunderhead for a boss.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I'm assuming the EC was doing the LPS with his own forces.

Nearly every GC I bid to has their estimating assistant call me prior to bid time and go over EVERY section of the specs to confirm scope.

This would have never been missed by the GC....in fact, I find it hard to believe the EC would have missed such a common requirement.

I also find it hard to believe this, and all of the other things you mentioned weren't flushed out during pre-award interviews.

...but that's just me

and *that* really brings us to the nut of the issue here,
both with the OP's concern, and subsequent comments:

vetting general contractors.

bidding work with a general contractor who is not competent
enough to define job scope with their subs is also not competent
enough to define job scope with their customer.

and that means, there are two ways the project can go south.
and both of them will adversely affect the sub.

with reference to some of the comments made here, anyone
who will bid and undertake work with someone who proceeds
with as little due diligence as has been displayed here in some
of the remarks deserves what will eventually befall them.

and i don't give a damn what state you contract in. it's easy enough
to lose money almost anywhere.

and a GC who thinks that doing the work of the bid AFTER the bid is
over simply means he didn't do his job.

 

[Wire 2 Race]

thats nice. so, i give you my best price, knowing it's going to
affect your number, affecting YOUR chance of getting the
job.

then you get the job, USING MY NUMBER, among others, and
as a matter of policy, then grind me, before we go any further.
just to see if you can shake some money out of me for free.

i'll say nothing further. i can't type and spit at the same time.

This is one reason I am taking early retirement, all the crooked builders. I changed my tag line on here some time ago trying to be less "inflammatory".

The only difference between a builder and a lawyer is that the builder couldn't pass the bar exam!!!

 

[nickelec]

If a GC called one of my subs to negotiate I would tell him to screw off and never do work for him again. Where I come from you just don't do that

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