GEC at Sub Panel

[Little Bill]

I know a separate structure needs a ground rod or GEC, but I have a slightly unusual situation. I need to set a sub panel on the outside of a house. Normally if it's on the same house/structure as the main, you would just use the EGC from there.

What I have is, the house has a new set of steps made of the decorator type blocks that I want to mount the sub panel to.
Since the steps are for the house and run right up to it, would that count as the same structure and no additional GEC/ground rod would be needed?

Here is a pic of the old steps which have been torn down. I didn't get a picture of the new steps because my batteries were dead in the camera. I did get a picture that shows what the blocks look like if you can make them out. I want to mount the panel on the right side of the new steps.

Another question, what would be the best way to mount the panel on these steps? As I said, the steps are made of what I suppose are landscape blocks that have a decorative front. Should I mount directly to them, or maybe some strut or some type of backer?

 

[jumper]

.

What I have is, the house has a new set of steps made of the decorator type blocks that I want to mount the sub panel to.
Since the steps are for the house and run right up to it, would that count as the same structure and no additional GEC/ground rod would be needed?

Attached IMHO, no separate GES needed.

225.1 Scope. This article covers requirements for outside
branch circuits and feeders run on or between buildings,
structures, or poles on the premises; and electrical equipment
and wiring for the supply of utilization equipment that
is located on or attached to the outside of buildings, structures,
or poles

 

[Little Bill]

Attached IMHO, no separate GES needed.

225.1 Scope. This article covers requirements for outside
branch circuits and feeders run on or between buildings,
structures, or poles on the premises; and electrical equipment
and wiring for the supply of utilization equipment that
is located on or attached to the outside of buildings, structures,
or poles

Thanks! I'll get this notarized and printed to give to the inspector.
When he sees "Jumper" that will be all it takes!

 

[Sierrasparky]

Why so many panels?
Why don't you guys on the other side of the continent use larger load centers or All in ones?

 

[Little Bill]

Why so many panels?
Why don't you guys on the other side of the continent use larger load centers or All in ones?

Have to have an outside panel to feed pool equipment. Has nothing to do with room in the main panel.

 

[suemarkp]

Don't forget all the rules in 680.25 since this becomes a pool equipment feeder.

 

[kwired]

Have to have an outside panel to feed pool equipment. Has nothing to do with room in the main panel.

Why do you have to have an outside panel to feed pool equipment? If main panel has sufficient space it can be fed from there. It all comes from there anyway, doesn't it?

There is no right or wrong as to how you should attach it. Each method has its own advantages as well as its own shortcomings, you pick which method has most advantages for the application.

 

[acrwc10]

Will the blocks be solid enough to mount to? That type of block stacks and are not grouted together. Just asking not telling.

 

[jumper]

Thanks! I'll get this notarized and printed to give to the inspector.
When he sees "Jumper" that will be all it takes!

More likely, you will get "5 to 10" following my advice/opinion..................:lol:

 

[Little Bill]

Why do you have to have an outside panel to feed pool equipment? If main panel has sufficient space it can be fed from there. It all comes from there anyway, doesn't it?

It does, but would you rather have one set of conductors run out of the house or 5-7 sets of conductors. There is several pieces of equipment that will get connected. Just easier to set a sub panel, then feed the equipment from it. Also, you have to have a means of disconnecting all pool equipment (except lights) at the same time and it has to be within sight of the equipment.

Will the blocks be solid enough to mount to? That type of block stacks and are not grouted together. Just asking not telling.

That's why I asked if maybe I should mount the panel on strut or something, then to the blocks.

 

[kwired]

It does, but would you rather have one set of conductors run out of the house or 5-7 sets of conductors. There is several pieces of equipment that will get connected. Just easier to set a sub panel, then feed the equipment from it. Also, you have to have a means of disconnecting all pool equipment (except lights) at the same time and it has to be within sight of the equipment.



That's why I asked if maybe I should mount the panel on strut or something, then to the blocks.

Fair enough. I assume your equipment is within sight of the panel location then. Isn't there panels already in the vicinity in the photo or are they just main disconnects? If these have space and a main you have already met those requirements. I guess the main disconnect(s) could still serve the purpose of simultaneous disconnection. Nothing in that section says it can not have non pool associated loads on it. You would still need local disconnect for each branch circuit if the branch circuit breaker is not within sight.

What are you attaching the strut to if you use strut?

 

[jap]

It does, but would you rather have one set of conductors run out of the house or 5-7 sets of conductors. There is several pieces of equipment that will get connected. Just easier to set a sub panel, then feed the equipment from it. Also, you have to have a means of disconnecting all pool equipment (except lights) at the same time and it has to be within sight of the equipment.



That's why I asked if maybe I should mount the panel on strut or something, then to the blocks.

That brings up an interesting point. If you did decide to run 5-7 sets of branch circuits from the inside panel,directly to the loads, could you consider the Service Disconnect in your picture as the means of disconnect for all of the branch circuits feeding the pool?

 

[jap]

As long as it was within sight and within 50' but no closer than 5' from the edge of the pool?

 

[Little Bill]

Fair enough. I assume your equipment is within sight of the panel location then. Isn't there panels already in the vicinity in the photo or are they just main disconnects? If these have space and a main you have already met those requirements. I guess the main disconnect(s) could still serve the purpose of simultaneous disconnection. Nothing in that section says it can not have non pool associated loads on it. You would still need local disconnect for each branch circuit if the branch circuit breaker is not within sight.

What are you attaching the strut to if you use strut?

That brings up an interesting point. If you did decide to run 5-7 sets of branch circuits from the inside panel,directly to the loads, could you consider the Service Disconnect in your picture as the means of disconnect for all of the branch circuits feeding the pool?

The service is 400A. The disconnects shown are just two 200A disconnects with fuses for each 200A panel inside.
I don't think they would want half the house shut down just for service/maintenance on the pool equipment.

As far as the strut goes, I thought about running the strut into the ground for added support, then attaching it to the blocks/steps.
But I've been told the strut will rust/corrode at the point it enters the ground. I don't know since I've never put strut in the ground before.

I am open to other mounting means if anyone has any ideas.:thumbsup:

 

[kwired]

The service is 400A. The disconnects shown are just two 200A disconnects with fuses for each 200A panel inside.
I don't think they would want half the house shut down just for service/maintenance on the pool equipment.

They probably don't want half the house shut down, but it still would be code compliant IMO.

 

[Glennsparky]

You lunatics had me goin' for a while!:blink: 680.12 does not mean the pool panel needs a main disconnect. It means for each piece of utilization equipment you need a disconnect. "All" of the pieces of equipment individually need at least one. Each disconnect must simultaneously shut off "all" the hots to that piece of equipment.

Intermatic, Jandy, Pentair, none of them have a main in their pool load centers. UL listed, 680 compliant.

The only time you need a main is, a seperate structure, and enough equipment to cause more than six throws.

 

[kwired]

You lunatics had me goin' for a while!:blink: 680.12 does not mean the pool panel needs a main disconnect. It means for each piece of utilization equipment you need a disconnect. "All" of the pieces of equipment individually need at least one. Each disconnect must simultaneously shut off "all" the hots to that piece of equipment.

Intermatic, Jandy, Pentair, none of them have a main in their pool load centers. UL listed, 680 compliant.

The only time you need a main is, a seperate structure, and enough equipment to cause more than six throws.

Had me goin' too. After reading it again I think you are probably right. For some reason I was reading it to mean there must be a single disconnecting means to shut down all pool equipment, but that is not what it says. It says each disconnecting means must open all ungrounded conductors:slaphead:

Before reading that section I assumed you had to disconnect all ungrounded conductors in the first place, and am not quite sure why they need to specify this in 680 as it should already be covered by chapters 1-4 material. Where in the general material in ch 1-4 does it allow a disconnecting means to not open all ungrounded conductors? Controllers sometimes can open just enough conductors to make a load stop working, but a disconnecting means always has to open all ungrounded circuit conductors.

 

[cpinetree]

Looks like he will need a main in his panel anyway, so he can tap off one of the two 200 amp disconnects.

 

[Little Bill]

You lunatics had me goin' for a while!:blink: 680.12 does not mean the pool panel needs a main disconnect. It means for each piece of utilization equipment you need a disconnect. "All" of the pieces of equipment individually need at least one. Each disconnect must simultaneously shut off "all" the hots to that piece of equipment.

Intermatic, Jandy, Pentair, none of them have a main in their pool load centers. UL listed, 680 compliant.

The only time you need a main is, a seperate structure, and enough equipment to cause more than six throws.

Had me goin' too. After reading it again I think you are probably right. For some reason I was reading it to mean there must be a single disconnecting means to shut down all pool equipment, but that is not what it says. It says each disconnecting means must open all ungrounded conductors:slaphead:

Before reading that section I assumed you had to disconnect all ungrounded conductors in the first place, and am not quite sure why they need to specify this in 680 as it should already be covered by chapters 1-4 material. Where in the general material in ch 1-4 does it allow a disconnecting means to not open all ungrounded conductors? Controllers sometimes can open just enough conductors to make a load stop working, but a disconnecting means always has to open all ungrounded circuit conductors.

First off, I never said it had to have a main. I said it had to have a means to disconnect all equipment simultaneously except lights.

680.12 doesn't say "each" piece of equipment, it says "all".

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means. One or more
means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors
shall be provided for all utilization equipment other
than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and
within sight from its equipment and shall be located at least
1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool,
spa, or hot tub unless separated from the open water by a ...

 

[kwired]

First off, I never said it had to have a main. I said it had to have a means to disconnect all equipment simultaneously except lights.

680.12 doesn't say "each" piece of equipment, it says "all".

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means. One or more
means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors
shall be provided for all utilization equipment other
than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and
within sight from its equipment and shall be located at least
1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool,
spa, or hot tub unless separated from the open water by a ...

It also says "One or more means" as well as uses the word "simultaneously". One would have to be a main if there is more than one circuit.

I still think this is a redundant section as the general requirements in chapters 1-4 already require what it says here.