GFCI not recommended

[GoldDigger]

Of course, I never have disagreed with that, but my point is I cant see a large fridge or dishwasher being dropped into water.

But I can see water being dropped into a dishwasher or fridge and reaching unplanned areas.
Regarding inductive kick, has anyone experience whether it occurs in a dead end GFCI receptacle with nothing plugged in, or does it depend on wiring capacitance to ground on the protected side of the hot?

 

[mbrooke]

But I can see water being dropped into a dishwasher or fridge and reaching unplanned areas.

The question is, is that string of water likely to be continuous and how conductive?

 

[iwire]

I am not referring to large appliances in commercial kitchens. Second you have no way of knowing if I am guessing or not.

Then concisely and directly tell us what specific appliances you are talking about.

Show us the source of your claim that EGCs do not fail on large appliances if you are not guessing.

 

[mbrooke]

Regardless of what others have proposed and have either been accepted or rejected, I am asking about you.

Since you seem rather vehement on this and other issues, why do you just stand aside and do nothing.

Complaining here will not change anything. Will it?

One must take reasonable action if one seeks to address a grievance.

Like Ive said, Ive tried. Everything Ive said and did was ignored. Others have done and continue to do the same only to be ignored.

I have no dislike about codes in general, we need rules. But as of late I am seeing the NEC go from practical safeguards to a bureaucratic mess without accountability. I keep finding myself rationalizing electrical theory against a shoe that does not fit.

 

[mbrooke]

Then concisely and directly tell us what specific appliances you are talking about.

Show us the source of your claim that EGCs do not fail on large appliances if you are not guessing.

Residential ranges, residential washers, residential dishwashers and residential kitchen refrigerators.


I have not made the claim that they never end up without an EGC, my claim is that they are far less likely to when compared to portable appliances.

 

[jumper]

Like Ive said, Ive tried. Everything Ive said and did was ignored.

Okay, so you have submitted proposals or comments.

May I ask for which year and NEC section? I would like to research them. I use the ROPs and such a lot.

 

[iwire]

Residential ranges, residential washers, residential dishwashers and residential kitchen refrigerators.

OK,

Here is the real world, you go to pull out the refrigerator from its spot. Of course you don't do this often, who does? But it happens from time to time. You can't unplug it first because the plug is behind it so you start wrestling this heavy appliance out and the next thing you know the cord gets yanked out of the wall leaving the ground pin in the outlet.

That is exactly the kind of reason GFCI requirements where recently added for vending machines.

I also repair the same issue on deli meat slicers all the time. They are heavy, they get moved each night for cleaning, the employees forget to unplug them and bam, another ground pin is ripped out.


So while I understand your point that say a small portable appliance gets plugged in and out much more often then heavy appliances heavy appliances are much more likely to damage the plug and / or cord.

I have not made the claim that they never end up without an EGC, my claim is that they are far less likely to when compared to portable appliances.

And I am still waiting to see the source of this knowledge.

Or are you just like NEMA?

 

[mbrooke]

fix quote

fix quote

OK,

Here is the real world, you go to pull out the refrigerator from its spot. Of course you don't do this often, who does? But it happens from time to time. You can't unplug it first because the plug is behind it so you start wrestling this heavy appliance out and the next thing you know the cord gets yanked out of the wall leaving the ground pin in the outlet.

That is exactly the kind of reason GFCI requirements where recently added for vending machines.

I also repair the same issue on deli meat slicers all the time. They are heavy, they get moved each night for cleaning, the employees forget to unplug them and bam, another ground pin is ripped out.


So while I understand your point that say a small portable appliance gets plugged in and out much more often then heavy appliances heavy appliances are much more likely to damage the plug and / or cord.

Im having a hard time picturing the ground pin scenarios in a resi.

And I am still waiting to see the source of this knowledge.

Or are you just like NEMA?

I will find something, but for now its mostly NEMA just like the CMP. If you read their ROPs about adding GFCIs to these appliances not a single solid study or even solid piece of evidence was shown. Everything was vague statistics from the CPSC or whom ever.

Yes its true I dont know what percentage of resi appliances end up without an EGC, but I would venture the same hold true for the CMPs.

 

[peter d]

Im having a hard time picturing the ground pin scenarios in a resi.

It certainly can happen. I'm thinking more of houses that have 2-wire systems which are still very common. In that case I can certainly see how GFCI protection would enhance safety.

I will find something, but for now its mostly NEMA just like the CMP. If you read their ROPs about adding GFCIs to these appliances not a single solid study or even solid piece of evidence was shown. Everything was vague statistics from the CPSC or whom ever.

Yes its true I dont know what percentage of resi appliances end up without an EGC, but I would venture the same hold true for the CMPs.

The dishwasher GFCI requirement is pure bunk. As for the blanket 6' rule, I'm still curious if they have actual death and injuries to point to.

 

[user 100]

Im having a hard time picturing the ground pin scenarios in a resi.

It happens-sometimes you can have a receptacle mounted sideways/horizontally and when the fridge is pulled or pushed from the sides it can pull on the cord in such a way where your shorter h&n prongs will come out but the longer ground pin(its longer so its the first contact to meet wih the rec and the last to be broken-for safety) will hang it up, stressing the pin and sometimes breaking it. I concede this is rare but it has definitely occurred and yes, it could be unplugged, but occasionally the cord for this or that reason isn't always easily accessible, and you also have those people that will just move things w/o paying attention.

 

[mbrooke]

It happens-sometimes you can have a receptacle mounted sideways/horizontally and when the fridge is pulled or pushed from the sides it can pull on the cord in such a way where your shorter h&n prongs will come out but the longer ground pin(its longer so its the first contact to meet wih the rec and the last to be broken-for safety) will hang it up, stressing the pin and sometimes breaking it. I concede this is rare but it has definitely occurred and yes, it could be unplugged, but occasionally the cord for this or that reason isn't always easily accessible, and you also have those people that will just move things w/o paying attention.

Ive seen it in commercial, usually on moving carts or things on wheels but I still vote rare in resi unless someone deliberately cuts the pin off.

 

[peter d]

Ive seen it in commercial, usually on moving carts or things on wheels but I still vote rare in resi unless someone deliberately cuts the pin off.

Rare but still possible. Enough to cause a hazard? I'd say the laws of probability say an appliance with an compromised EGC will certainly be capable of causing a shock hazard at some point in time.

Let's just say this - I have no issue with GFCI requirements for the most part. I do think the NEC has gone way over board with the 6' rule as well as dishwashers. I see no reason for these rules and believe they will only cause nuisance tripping and removal of the AFCI/GFCI protection. Yes, in the real world, it does get removed.

 

[mbrooke]

Rare but still possible. Enough to cause a hazard? I'd say the laws of probability say an appliance with an compromised EGC will certainly be capable of causing a shock hazard at some point in time.

Let's just say this - I have no issue with GFCI requirements for the most part. I do think the NEC has gone way over board with the 6' rule as well as dishwashers. I see no reason for these rules and believe they will only cause nuisance tripping and removal of the AFCI/GFCI protection. Yes, in the real world, it does get removed.

Exactly my thoughts.

I have nothing against GFCIs, but requiring them on dishwashers to cover melting electronics is not something I will stand for.

 

[jumper]

I have nothing against GFCIs, but requiring them on dishwashers to cover melting electronics is not something I will stand for.

And what actions will you take? Something more positive than merely posting here I would assume.

If you would, please address my earlier query:

Okay, so you have submitted proposals or comments.

May I ask for which year and NEC section? I would like to research them. I use the ROPs and such a lot.

 

[iwire]

I have nothing against GFCIs, but requiring them on dishwashers to cover melting electronics is not something I will stand for.

You say that like you are alone in that but I have not seen anyone on this forum except NEMA support that rule.


I also asked you what appliances you where talking about, you listed some and now you are off that list. As usual any thread you are in drifts 17 directions.

 

[user 100]

It certainly can happen. I'm thinking more of houses that have 2-wire systems which are still very common. In that case I can certainly see how GFCI protection would enhance safety.

A few times I have found where someone has removed the ground pin so the old 2 wire rec can accommodate the plug, only for me to discover that old receptacle already had a decent egc (originally ran separately or connected to the back of the box).

 

[romex jockey]

Ive seen it in commercial, usually on moving carts or things on wheels but I still vote rare in resi unless someone deliberately cuts the pin off.

Most larger resi appliances we move on service calls reveal coupons for dippy doo , Kennedy for Prez pins, and/or petrified dog biscuits.

Some predate groundING requirements at all.... None seem to have gone the double insulated route of smaller portable toolage....

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

A few times I have found where someone has removed the ground pin so the old 2 wire rec can accommodate the plug, only for me to discover that old receptacle already had a decent egc (originally ran separately or connected to the back of the box).

Many Eisenhower era washing machines still sport suicide adapters making an external EGC to it's serving H2O pipe here.....~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

You say that like you are alone in that but I have not seen anyone on this forum except NEMA support that rule.


I also asked you what appliances you where talking about, you listed some and now you are off that list. As usual any thread you are in drifts 17 directions.

Recent times had a rash of poorly manufactured residential appliances flood the market here Iwire>

Appliance fires pose a safety concern
Millions of dishwashers, fridges, ranges, and more are on recall lists

This made a satistical impact , noted by our NFPA>

Wiring and related equipment accounted for the largest share (63%) of 2007-2011 home structure fires involving electrical distribution or lighting equipment, followed by lamps, light fixtures, and light bulbs (20%), cords and plugs (11%), and transformers and power supplies (6%). Cords and plugs accounted for larger shares of civilian deaths (30%) and injuries (21%) than of fire incidents (11%) associated with home electrical distribution or lighting equipment fires.

The 'quick NEC fix' , as evidenced by many '14 rop's , was to simply mandate for resi what had been mandated prior for commercial kitchens

~RJ~

 

[iwire]

Recent times had a rash of poorly manufactured residential appliances flood the market here Iwire>

Appliance fires pose a safety concern
Millions of dishwashers, fridges, ranges, and more are on recall lists

This made a satistical impact , noted by our NFPA>



The 'quick NEC fix' , as evidenced by many '14 rop's , was to simply mandate for resi what had been mandated prior for commercial kitchens

~RJ~

Yes, that clears everything up.

When I point out these threads have a habit of drifting the best idea is to drift even more. :lol: