gfci on afci circuit tripping

[Little Bill]

Understanding that the GFCI is being fed by a bedroom which requires to be AFCI protected. The smart ass Electrician who wired the home should have ran a separate circuit for the GFI's so this would have never been a problem. Even if say it is the saw the GFI should not trip being it is on an AFCI circuit it does just run him a new circuit so he never has this problem again why are some people so damn lazy meaning the person who wired the house or contractor who built it. This is why the electrical industry has no real standards.

I see and hear all this crap all the time here in California. People in California have house parties and kiddy parties with air powered jumpers that run just under 20 amps and I get calls that the keep tripping a breaker or a GFCI. Real Electricians do it right and don't over charge people so by you saying it is more expensive you cut corners all the time which is sloppy way of doing things.

The OP said the GFCI receptacles were tripping, not the AFCI breaker. Having the GFCI tied on an AFCI protected circuit would IMO, have nothing to do with the GFCIs tripping. I would think that if this was a problem the AFCI would also trip. So running a separate circuit off a regular breaker and using the GFCI receps wouldn't help anything.

 

[John120/240]

I see and hear all this crap all the time here in California. People in California have house parties and kiddy parties with air powered jumpers that run just under 20 amps and I get calls that the keep tripping a breaker or a GFCI. Real Electricians do it right and don't over charge people so by you saying it is more expensive you cut corners all the time which is sloppy way of doing things.

Chill ACE 1970, In the real world of Electrical Contracting you have to compete with others in

your market who are wiring similar homes. Unless it is a custom home they usually get the code

minimum. If you know of a particular need, wire accordingly & charge for it. ACE I will say that

the members of this forum are not part of "you cut corners all the time " crowd.

 

[readydave8]

I see and hear all this crap all the time here in California. People in California have house parties and kiddy parties with air powered jumpers that run just under 20 amps and I get calls that the keep tripping a breaker or a GFCI. Real Electricians do it right and don't over charge people so by you saying it is more expensive you cut corners all the time which is sloppy way of doing things.

dude you're out of line if you're talking about me

 

[readydave8]

How is it legal if an AFCI is strickly for bedrooms and A GFCI is for the outside of a home, a bathroom,kitchen or a garage. One, you are introducing an outside receptacle to the inside of a bedroom or hallway leading to a bedroom. Remember an Arc Fault Circuit Interupeter ( AFCI ) must be installed in any bedroom circuit or hallway leading to a bedroom. What state do you people live in or have your license in if you have a license?

are you saying that it is a code violation to feed an exterior GFCI from a bedroom circuit? where do I find this in NEC?

Georgia. I do have a state license.

 

[George Stolz]

dude you're out of line if you're talking about me

Agreed. Ace, tone it down. :thumbsdown:

Right, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I would ask you to present a code section or some other document to support your assertion that the installation is not workmanlike.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

How is it legal if an AFCI is strickly for bedrooms and A GFCI is for the outside of a home, a bathroom,kitchen or a garage. One, you are introducing an outside receptacle to the inside of a bedroom or hallway leading to a bedroom. Remember an Arc Fault Circuit Interupeter ( AFCI ) must be installed in any bedroom circuit or hallway leading to a bedroom. What state do you people live in or have your license in if you have a license?

What code are you looking at??? There has never been a rule in the NEC that required bedrooms and hallways leading to bedrooms to have AFCI protection. The first NEC rule was that branch circuits serving bedroom receptacle outlets had to have AFCI protection, then it was expanded to branch circuits that serve bedroom outlets, and now it covers most of house.

 

[Howard Burger]

Epilogue

Epilogue

An epilogue... is a piece of writing at the end of a work of literature or drama, usually used to bring closure to the work. Wikipedia.

I didn't intend that my original post requesting shared experience would turn into a barfight. For those that care about the original problem, here's what happened:

I went back to the house today. Both gfi's functioned with the test/reset buttons, and both showed correct wiring using my plug tester.

I plugged in my old (20+ yr) Skillsaw and it ran fine. I lopped off pieces of a 2x4 to put a little load on it, and it still ran fine. I plugged in my even older Milwaukee sawzall, which on a good day sounds like a threshing machine, and it barely got up to speed when it tripped - the afci. Jumper, you are right on - afci's do not like some motors.

The owner had been adamant that it was the gfci that tripped, however, when I called him back, he indicated that the breaker tripped. I swear, he never mentioned breaker in our original conversation. So, lesson learned, don't assume the customer is saying what you think he is saying.

Parsing ACE1970's comments, I intend that the next custom house I do I will certainly put the outdoor gfi's on some non-arc faulted circuit, maybe the utility room conveinience recept., or an outdoor recept. circuit of it's own. This particular job was for a young man who was wiring on a tight budget, so I put the front and back recepts. on nearby circuits. Fortunately, the Muni here requires a dedicated circuit for a hbh, so he has a 'good' outdoor receptacle that isn't on an afci.

Thank all of you for your comments.

In closing, when I was growing up certain members of my family exibited temper on occassion. The rule I learned was that when you're thoroughly upset, never drive a vehicle or touch a gun. Today, I might extend that to leaving the 'send' button alone after a good, cleansing rant.

 

[ACE1970]

In California the NEC is minimum. AHJ calls all the shots. Maybe most people on here posting have never encountered AHJ or know the meaning of it. Not downing anyone one just stating some facts. Perhaps we Californians have stricter AHJ.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

In California the NEC is minimum.

And the minimum is what is expected to be delivered these days if you wish to make a profit.

Maybe most people on here posting have never encountered AHJ or know the meaning of it.

This condescending attitude is getting old dude. Some of the people that participate on this forum (myself excluded) are some of the greatest electrical minds out there when it comes to code. Lose the 'tude. Maybe you'll learn something.

 

[George Stolz]

In California the NEC is minimum. AHJ calls all the shots. Maybe most people on here posting have never encountered AHJ or know the meaning of it. Not downing anyone one just stating some facts. Perhaps we Californians have stricter AHJ.

You know what's funny about that statement is that it just makes everyone who knows better tired.

The fact is, the AHJ is usually the CBO at the building department. 90.4 tasks him/her with interpreting the rules. The AHJ generally can amend the NEC as they see fit (in writing). Barring a written amendment, the AHJ really has no grounds to hold up their end of a lawsuit, which is what they are risking when the make things up.

Most of us who know better also are aware that you probably failed an inspection once due to an undertrained inspector making up a rule in the field, with which you likely caved in to without doing any research or offering up any resistance at all, making matters worse for the next guy.

I am still waiting to see a nationally recognized standard which supports your claim that feeding a receptacle outdoors off a bedroom is not workmanlike. There is no prohibition in the NEC to doing it.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

..AHJ or know the meaning of it. ...

I agree that most don't know the meaning of "AHJ". In fact most have never met an "AHJ". It is a somewhat rare case where the AHJ is even a person.

 

[marti smith]

Which is really a tragedy, as a 10 min. "tailgate class" with an inspector can offer more than several hours in the book.

 

[Little Bill]

An epilogue... is a piece of writing at the end of a work of literature or drama, usually used to bring closure to the work. Wikipedia.

I didn't intend that my original post requesting shared experience would turn into a barfight. For those that care about the original problem, here's what happened:

I went back to the house today. Both gfi's functioned with the test/reset buttons, and both showed correct wiring using my plug tester.

I plugged in my old (20+ yr) Skillsaw and it ran fine. I lopped off pieces of a 2x4 to put a little load on it, and it still ran fine. I plugged in my even older Milwaukee sawzall, which on a good day sounds like a threshing machine, and it barely got up to speed when it tripped - the afci. Jumper, you are right on - afci's do not like some motors.

The owner had been adamant that it was the gfci that tripped, however, when I called him back, he indicated that the breaker tripped. I swear, he never mentioned breaker in our original conversation. So, lesson learned, don't assume the customer is saying what you think he is saying.

Parsing ACE1970's comments, I intend that the next custom house I do I will certainly put the outdoor gfi's on some non-arc faulted circuit, maybe the utility room conveinience recept., or an outdoor recept. circuit of it's own. This particular job was for a young man who was wiring on a tight budget, so I put the front and back recepts. on nearby circuits. Fortunately, the Muni here requires a dedicated circuit for a hbh, so he has a 'good' outdoor receptacle that isn't on an afci.

Thank all of you for your comments.

In closing, when I was growing up certain members of my family exibited temper on occassion. The rule I learned was that when you're thoroughly upset, never drive a vehicle or touch a gun. Today, I might extend that to leaving the 'send' button alone after a good, cleansing rant.

Now that makes sense. In my earlier post I mentioned having heard some say their saws/tools didn't work well on GFCIs. Well I've heard even more stories about motors/tools/etc. not working well on AFCIs. As far as the customer not saying what they think they're saying, I had a call to go and check out a light. I asked the customer what size light/bulbs they had. She told me "one of them 2 footers". I ask if she was sure and she said yes the short ones. I get everything I can think of for all the different kinds of 2' fluorescent, and when I get there she had 4' lights!:rant:

What is a "hbh"?

 

[ptonsparky]

In California the NEC is minimum. AHJ calls all the shots. Maybe most people on here posting have never encountered AHJ or know the meaning of it. Not downing anyone one just stating some facts. Perhaps we Californians have stricter AHJ.

Ok.

 

[Howard Burger]

hbh = headbolt heater

hbh = headbolt heater

'hbh' = headbolt heater - power for the block heater or tank heater for vehicle engines in the winter. Sorry, Little Bill, I shouldn't use local abbreviations. It's a local Anchorage addition to the code that new single family res. must have one on a dedicated circuit. Don't know what the rule is in other places around the state.

 

[Little Bill]

'hbh' = headbolt heater - power for the block heater or tank heater for vehicle engines in the winter. Sorry, Little Bill, I shouldn't use local abbreviations. It's a local Anchorage addition to the code that new single family res. must have one on a dedicated circuit. Don't know what the rule is in other places around the state.

That makes sense for "Iglooville", you probably need a heater for the "in-use cover" too!:lol:

 

[SOG38]

GFCI on AFCI tripping

GFCI on AFCI tripping

My $.02 worth
All of the tools mentioned have universal motors (brushes) There will be arcing of the brushes depending on wear and load some will arc more than others.
It makes sense to me that some will trip it some won't.
I find no code issues. I would be cautious as some of the newer afci combine gfci and might cause an issue with the second gfci. Just a thought.

 

[readydave8]

My $.02 worth
All of the tools mentioned have universal motors (brushes) There will be arcing of the brushes depending on wear and load some will arc more than others.
It makes sense to me that some will trip it some won't.
I find no code issues. I would be cautious as some of the newer afci combine gfci and might cause an issue with the second gfci. Just a thought.

I have seen combination AFCI's, these are combo parellel and series. I have not seen combo AFCI/GFCI but these things come slowly to rural Georgia.

I don't understand what issues might be caused with the second gfci?

 

[ptonsparky]

I have seen combination AFCI's, these are combo parellel and series. I have not seen combo AFCI/GFCI but these things come slowly to rural Georgia.

I don't understand what issues might be caused with the second gfci?

The only problem would be the race to see which one tripped first.

 

[CONTROL FREQ]

I have seen combination AFCI's, these are combo parellel and series. I have not seen combo AFCI/GFCI but these things come slowly to rural Georgia.

I don't understand what issues might be caused with the second gfci?

YOU ARE A SENIOR MEMBER... Try to wire a gfci receptacle, from a gfci receptacle... :huh:
SORRY, I really wasn't trying to sound mean, or condescending. It just don't work, if you do it that way...:happysad: