GFI receptacles

[kevin Bortin]

Need a clear answer....old homes with 2 wire romex....can a GFI receptacle be installed where code recommends and will it work without a ground wire installed....local electricians....some say yes others say it will not work safely.

 

[charlie b]

Yes it is allowed. Yes it will work. But you will have a bit of trouble, as a Home Inspector. That is because the tool you might use to test a GFCI, the red version with lights and with a pushbutton to activate the trip, will not work. It needs a ground wire to determine if the GFCI is functioning. But the GFCI can function, and will protect the user in the way it was designed to protect the user, even if there is no ground wire.

All that presumes, of course, that it was properly installed.

 

[JohnJ0906]

The proper way to test a GFCI is the "test" button. If you wish to see if the other outlets are protected by the GFCI, Test all the outlets, trip the GFCI, then check again - the other outlets would then be dead.

 

[lowryder88h]

Gfci

Gfci

Kevin, to check the proper installation on your part see 406.3(D) (1-3)

 

[tom baker]

Replacing of 2 wire receptacles with a GFCI is allowed by NEC, and would be a safer installation (for electrical shock).
Use of the plug in GFCI testers is a violation of NEC 110.3(B).

 

[charlie b]

Use of the plug in GFCI testers is a violation of NEC 110.3(B).

You lost me there, Tom. The NEC does not cover anything that we (or the HO) would plug into a receptacle outlet. You can plug one of those testers into an outlet anytime you wish. It will not give you an accurate answer, but that doesn't stop you from using it.

 

[tom baker]

OK, I want to see what else comes in. I didn't mean to be harsh, but the questions:
1. Does a GFCI require a ground to operate?
and
2. My plug in GFCI tester does not trip the GFCI!

Come up far to often.
However, answering those questions are why we are here!

 

[LarryFine]

1. Does a GFCI require a ground to operate?
and
2. My plug in GFCI tester does not trip the GFCI!

1. No.

2. Try a wiggy and the grounding hole of a 3-wire extension cord plugged into a grounded receptacle.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

This thread just shows the limitations of some testers and how people who use the testers need to know and understand why these limitations exist.

 

[quogueelectric]

Totaly disagree

Totaly disagree

A gfci receptacle needs to be connected to a ground wire to work properly. If the ground is not hooked up in my experience the gfci will eventually trip but not at the safe levels it was designed to trip at . I have field tested this theory with a leviton gfci recepticle and have found this to be true. This has nothing to do with a ground being present on the load side. If a gfci tester needs a ground reference to trip and it does not exist on a three pronged gfci protected 2 wire it is useless for this application you could make up a neon lit cord with a variable resistance to check amperage values of the trip to ground

 

[iwire]

A gfci receptacle needs to be connected to a ground wire to work properly.

That is absolutely untrue regardless of what you believe you found in your 'field tests'.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

A gfci receptacle needs to be connected to a ground wire to work properly. If the ground is not hooked up in my experience the gfci will eventually trip but not at the safe levels it was designed to trip at . I have field tested this theory with a leviton gfci recepticle and have found this to be true. This has nothing to do with a ground being present on the load side.

The sensor in the GFCI device only has two conductors going through it, the hot and the grounded (sometimes called the neutral conductor). The sensor monitors the difference of current flow betwee the two conductors. If it senses around 5 miliamps difference of flow, it opens its circuitry.

So, the equipment ground conductor does not necessarily play a part, other paths of current flow could be the cause (like a human being)

 

[mayjong]

one good way to test a gfi without a ground is to use abutterknife and a fork....
zzzzzzzzzzzzz...hey, they really do work without a ground!!

 

[quogueelectric]

you are entitled to your opinion

you are entitled to your opinion

You obviosly havent tested this yourself. Why dont you try it tommorow and get back to me with your results if you are so sure of yourself.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

You obviosly havent tested this yourself. Why dont you try it tommorow and get back to me with your results if you are so sure of yourself.

Maybe you should email the different manufacturers of the GFCIs to get their response to what you are saying, this way you will not need to listen to the collective experience that this site does have to offer.

You can also google the term GFCI device and see what you come up with...it will be enlightening.

 

[roger]

You obviosly havent tested this yourself. Why dont you try it tommorow and get back to me with your results if you are so sure of yourself.

A GFCI will trip at 4 to 6 MA of current imbalance with or without an EGC.

Roger

 

[480sparky]

A GFI will also trip if there's more current returning through the grounded (neutral) as well. They only look for an imbalance.

 

[iwire]

You obviosly havent tested this yourself.

No I have not.

A GFCI simply does not use an EGC to function any more than an incandescent lamp needs an EGC to light.

A GFCI must be supplied by a grounded electrical system to function properly.

 

[480sparky]

A GFCI must have a ground to test properly, but not to function.

If you are required to have a ground present for a GFI to function, then 406(3)(c) would not exist.

GFI testers work by placing a slight load between the hot and ground, thereby creating a ground fault. This should trip the GFI when it senses the imbalance created.

If there's no ground present, the test button and a plug-in tester won't work.

But if you stick a metal fork tine into the ungrounded side of a GFI and you are grounded enough to create a 4-6mA current flow, a properly functioning GFI will trip.

 

[roger]

If there's no ground present, the test button and a plug-in tester won't work.

The onboard test button will work on a GFCI with out an EGC present.

Roger