Ghost in the Machine?

[K8MHZ]

A friend has been complaining about high electric bills so yesterday while I was there visiting I decided to take a peek in the panel.

First yuk was to see GE breakers in the Bryant/Westinghouse panel. Yes, they fit and work, but I doubt they are approved.

The voltages where high (still are AFAIK), up to 130 / 252 but balanced. My first current check showed little to be concerned with but as I was snooping I started to see not only the voltage fluxuate, but the current as well. I was seeing 3 - 4 amps fairly balanced, one or two on the neutral...cool. Then I started to see nearly 20 amps on the neutral. Sure enough, one leg also had 20 amps on it. But nothing had been turned on or had come on.

I started flicking breakers until the current went away. Once I found the offending circuit I now had to figure out what it supplied.

Everything in the house was still working. Long story short, the breaker supplied power to the wash machine which is in the same room as the panel. It appears to be a dedicated circuit. The wash machine was off and had never been turned on. The dryer does not operate from that circuit. I unplugged the washer and did a visual to find nothing of concern. I flipped the breaker back on and now the high current draw was gone. I couldn't make it re-appear.

I hate when that happens.

Well, at least I know which circuit I am dealing with. At the very least we are going to replace the receptacle. I doubt a dirty receptacle would draw 15 amps (the other 5 was from other loads) without showing some form of external evidence but I want to at least look at it and why not just replace it at the same time?

The washer is also still a suspect.

If this sounds familiar to anyone, please share! Otherwise I will keep you posted.

 

[massfd]

If it is one of the newer front loading type, some of them have built in water heaters. You would think the heater would turn off when the machine dows but who knows.

http://products.howstuffworks.com/whirlpool-front-load-washer-lhw0050p-review.htm

It's unlikely anything else in a washer could draw that much and not make smoke.

 

[K8MHZ]

If it is one of the newer front loading type, some of them have built in water heaters. You would think the heater would turn off when the machine dows but who knows.

http://products.howstuffworks.com/whirlpool-front-load-washer-lhw0050p-review.htm

It's unlikely anything else in a washer could draw that much and not make smoke.

I guess I should look at the current rating listed on the machine. If it is more than 10 amps you may be correct. Just running the motor (in spin) the machine drew around an amp or less.

 

[Rewire]

voltage fluxuations at the panel could be due to a bad neutral comming into the panel.If you are getting voltage fluxuations while turning breakers off the look for a bad incomming neutral.

 

[480sparky]

voltage fluxuations at the panel could be due to a bad neutral comming into the panel.If you are getting voltage fluxuations while turning breakers off the look for a bad incomming neutral.

I think he's already checked that.

............The voltages where high (still are AFAIK), up to 130 / 252 but balanced...........

 

[K8MHZ]

I think he's already checked that.

That's correct. I even walked down the triplex run looking for broken strands in the messenger wire. Everything looked good.

On Edit: Open neutrals are fairly common around here. Checking them is part of my regimen even if the symptoms seem not to be related.

 

[Kdog76]

A friend has been complaining about high electric bills.

Why does he think it's high? Exactly how much more it is then normal? I would rule out the obvious stuff. Any new appliances, or using appliances more then usual, turning on electric heat? Electric water heater?

I decided to take a peek in the panel.

If I did that every time somebody says they have a high utility bill I would be out of business.

Then I started to see nearly 20 amps on the neutral. Sure enough, one leg also had 20 amps on it. But nothing had been turned on or had come on. I started flicking breakers until the current went away. Once I found the offending circuit I now had to figure out what it supplied.

Was your meter working & set correctly? Were you reading current on the feeders or the individual branch circuit? Unless you were clamped on to the individual circuit at the time you shut it off you may have just had a coincidence. How do you know nothing else came on? Maybe an electric water heater or baseboard heater kicked in?

I flipped the breaker back on and now the high current draw was gone. I couldn't make it re-appear.

Was the draw on the ungrounded or grounded conductor? Is this on the branch circuit or the feeder?

at least I know which circuit I am dealing with

Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[K8MHZ]

I would also like to add that sometimes the voltage from L-N would drop to 120 for a few seconds and then go back to 127 - 130. L-L never dropped below 242. Even when low, L-N voltages were still balanced.

L-N x 2 would never exactly = L-L. In this case when L-N was 130, L-L would be 250.

It's almost like it's out of phase.

 

[Rewire]

have you ever been to re create the condition?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I would also like to add that sometimes the voltage from L-N would drop to 120 for a few seconds and then go back to 127 - 130. L-L never dropped below 242. Even when low, L-N voltages were still balanced.

How did you take your readings, did you have a recorder, use 3 meters, or move 1 meter around?

L-N x 2 would never exactly = L-L. In this case when L-N was 130, L-L would be 250.

Did the L1-N and the L2-N = L1-L2?

 

[K8MHZ]

Why does he think it's high? Exactly how much more it is then normal? I would rule out the obvious stuff. Any new appliances, or using appliances more then usual, turning on electric heat? Electric water heater?

Higher usage than in the past with no changes in appliances. In fact, they even un plugged the water bed heater. Yes, they have an electric water heater and it was on when I was there and not drawing much. I still want to check the elements in it when I get time. Today is Opening Day of rifle season so he won't be home until after dark.

If I did that every time somebody says they have a high utility bill I would be out of business.

He has been crabbing about this for a while. I have been promising him I would come out and take a look for months.

Was your meter working & set correctly? Were you reading current on the feeders or the individual branch circuit? Unless you were clamped on to the individual circuit at the time you shut it off you may have just had a coincidence. How do you know nothing else came on? Maybe an electric water heater or baseboard heater kicked in?

I was reading the feeders when I noticed the increase in current. I asked what had been turned on and nothing was. I shut off the breaker to the water heater and water pump and the high current was still there. It was only when I turned the washer CB off that I lost the 15 amps. We forced every appliance and the furnace on and nothing drew 15 amps, not even close. Heat is with propane as is cooking and dryer.

Was the draw on the ungrounded or grounded conductor? Is this on the branch circuit or the feeder?

I got 15.3 amps on the ungrounded conductor being fed from a 15 amp breaker. I shut it down as soon as I read the meter and started to attempt to locate the affected circuit by process of elimination. That took a while and once I found the receptacle the breaker fed I could not get the current to increase again. I suggested leaving that breaker off unless they were using the washer until I get this figured out. A 15 amp load is a lot of heat!

Maybe. Maybe not.

Indeed. It's never safe to make assumptions. I have seen circuits fed from multiple sources unintentionally and they can make for a tricky job.

 

[K8MHZ]

have you ever been to re create the condition?

No, and that as I bet you know, really makes things tough.

The next time I am out I am going to make another attempt.

 

[augie47]

.....
Yes, they have an electric water heater and it was on when I was there and not drawing much.

relative term assuming a storage type water heater, it should be zero or full current (approx 19 amps for most). If it's "not drawing much" as in a few amps, I would be very suspect that you have an element "leaking" to ground.

 

[Rewire]

the fastest way to make it happen again is send them a bill

 

[K8MHZ]

How did you take your readings, did you have a recorder, use 3 meters, or move 1 meter around?

Just one meter. I plan on going back and re-checking with multiple meters, one being my trusty analog so I can watch for dithering.

Did the L1-N and the L2-N = L1-L2?

The current was real close. The voltage was at times 10 volts off. That is why I suspect some sort of phasing or reactance issues which probably doesn't have anything to do with the 15 amp draw from the washer circuit.

 

[K8MHZ]

the fastest way to make it happen again is send them a bill

Nah, he is a friend of 40 years and helps me out a bunch when I need it.

 

[K8MHZ]

relative term assuming a storage type water heater, it should be zero or full current (approx 19 amps for most). If it's "not drawing much" as in a few amps, I would be very suspect that you have an element "leaking" to ground.

I am not letting the water heater off the hook just yet, but a 15 amp draw that just appears out of nowhere and seems to power nothing is a prime suspect in my opinion.

I know how to check the water heater it's just that I didn't have enough time to do much more than I did. As it was they were sighting in deer rifles about 10 feet from where I was working on the panel. (You should have seen the cat when they touched off the first round!)

 

[augie47]

That's good planning Just as you get your hands in the panel, let's fire off another round :grin:

Please let us know what you find.

 

[satcom]

Try leaving the one circuit on that you think had the 20A reading and look at the electric meter and see if it is moving.

 

[K8MHZ]

That's good planning Just as you get your hands in the panel, let's fire off another round :grin:

Please let us know what you find.

Yeah, it was really distracting. I haven't got a chance to shoot my friend's 22-250 yet and while I was nosing around in the panel they were right outside the door having fun with it.

They did warn me but I would have been prepared for it anyway. It's a Michigan thing, plus, I saw the rifle on the picnic table along with a bag, a set of muffs and a box of shells. Out where the practice hole for my friends back yard golf course was now stood a target.

The cat, however, was not so prepared. They can jump straight up in the air, did you know that?