Help with Proposal

[frank_n]

I apologize in advance if this long-winded; I want to explain my situation. I am bidding on wiring a second floor addition and a 200-amp service upgrade. Most of my electrical experience is commercial/industrial. I do have a little residential experience. In 2002, I got out of the electrical business full-time and went into teaching. Last summer, I started my own contracting business that I operate part-time during the school year and during the summer. So far, I have been take the usual smaller jobs that electricians take when starting a new business (ceiling fans, recessed lights, etc.) while hoping to get bigger jobs. Finally a GC contacted me and gave me the opportunity to bid on this addition. Unfortunately while I was a contractor, I didn?t do many residential products such as this, and I never did any of the bidding. I also understand that commercial electricians are much slower at residential electricians at residential work. I must work hard to overcome this.

Let me explain the job I am bidding on.

It is a 900 sq. ft. second level with 2 bedrooms and a full bath. Both bedrooms have large walk in closets with 4 recessed lights and 1 receptacle. Each bedroom has a ceiling fan (to be purchased by the GC) and 9 receptacles. The ceiling fan is going to be controlled by toggle switches (ceiling fan switches/dimmers will be an upgrade.) The bathroom will have a fan, vanity light, and a recessed light over the shower and another over the Jacuzzi tub. Of course there needs to be a circuit for the Jacuzzi tub. Finally, there is a smoke detector circuit that calls for three in the new area (2 in bedrooms + 1 in hall) and three in the existing area. The hallway will have a 3-way, a 4-way and another 3-way that has to be snaked to the existing area. I believe this will take 17 hours at $65 for $1105. Materials will cost $521 (10% markup) for a total of $1626.

The GC has specified Square D Homeline 30-space panel with a PVC drop. I came out with $1250 for the upgrade.

Since this my first time bidding on a job of this size, I want some advice to see if I am too high or low. This job is in central NJ.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Frank

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Help with Proposal

Some of the businessmen of the forum will likely give you more accurate feedback with your pricing. Your service upgrade seems really low, IMO.

Both bedrooms have large walk in closets with 4 recessed lights and 1 receptacle.

Caution: Lamps in closets are required to be enclosed. Most can trims with enclosed lamps put off poor light. Bear that in mind.

 

[growler]

So, you are getting $2876.00 for the whole job. That's a 200 Amp. service upgade and 900 Sq ft of living space. I don't know what the rates are in your area but in my opinion you are Too Low!

 

[frank_n]

George,

Thanks for the reply.

The smaller closet is 8' x 8'. When I read the definition of storage space (410.8.A) and look at figure 410.8 I am assuming that the storage space is the area in the room where the clothes are stored. Is this assumption wrong? Is the whole room considered "storage space"? The recessed lights will be installed in the middle of the room. If I keep these fixtures in the middle, am I violating the NEC?

If this is a violation, 410.8.(D)(4) allows a flourescent recessed fixture. As long as I keep the fixtures within 6" of the storage space I should comply with this code.

Thanks for your help. I want to make sure everything I do is code compliant.

Frank

 

[George Stolz]

You're probably thinking correctly, your words are coming out a little wrong.

The "storage space" is contained within the "clothes closet."

410.8(B) & (C) tell us what kind of luminaires can be inside the clothes closet. They require the lamp to an incandescent fixture to be enclosed.

410.8(D) tells us how far away from the storage space inside the closet those different types of luminaire have to be. (You said "within 6", I assume you were meaning "more than 6" away", it's an easy slip of the tongue.)

 

[celtic]

I'm at $5045 based on what you mentioned...which did NOT mention ANYTHING in the kitchen....seperate refrig. outlet, dishwasher, compactor/disposal, lighting, range - gas or electric, range hood - MW or not, etc.

Is this "JUST" the bedrooms, closets and bath?

The 200A upgrade is at least 2k (sight unseen), but would include from weather head to panel. Branch circuit CBs I include on the branch circuit/general wiring take-off/estimate.

 

[frank_n]

Yes, this is just bedrooms, closets and bath. Obviously I am doing something wrong. Is my $65/hr too low, or my estimate of 17hrs for the remodel and 12 for the service upgrade.

If you don't mind answering, how did you figure that estimate. It took me hours to figure mine.

Frank

 

[growler]

Sorry.. I'm deleting because I can't get this link to work.

 

[celtic]

Yes, this is just bedrooms, closets and bath. Obviously I am doing something wrong. Is my $65/hr too low, or my estimate of 17hrs for the remodel and 12 for the service upgrade.

I based my numbers on a price for each item...not by the time to install/perform each task.

If you don't mind answering, how did you figure that estimate. It took me hours to figure mine.

Frank

No problem at all...
200A is generally 2k, based on past experiences...some guys will try and tell you a service is $8/amp - that's all well and good, but that $8/amp figure is from 1986. Material, manhpower and everything else under the sun has gone up in the last decade.

Recessed cans - $110/per, includes can, bulb and baffle trim - You have 10~ $1100
Outlets - $30/per includes wire, box, device, plate, staples, etc - You have 20~ $600 not AFCI protected.
Switches - $40/per includes wire, box, device, plate, staples, etc - You have 6~ $240 (1 in each BR, 1 in each closet, 2 in bath)
Exhaust fan - $35 to install, price of fan NOT included.
Vanity - $35 to install, price of fan NOT included.
Jacuzzi - $125 , includes a CB, #12 wire and a floating GFCI device under Jacuzzi - no timers, etc.
Smokes - $75/per - includes wire, box and head. There are 6, so $450.

2000
1100
600
240
35
35
125
450
_____
4585

+10% misc (460)
_______
5045


On to this, you will need to ADD:
- the cost of the permit and what you anticipate your time will be to file and walk with the inspector 2 -3 times.
- vanity and exhaust fans IF you are supplied them.

This number does NOT include ANY work on the venting for the exhaust fan.

 

[satcom]

Central Jersey 200A Upgrade, 2,000 on the low side and 3,000 on the upper side, depending on material, and job conditions, if your using service cable, and alum bus panel, then on the low side.
The room addition i think, your missing the fact that there is some old work involved, for example, the smoke detectors will have to be tied into the existing smokes, and you may need to replace all the other smokes, in the home to be compatable, this can eat up some time, and there are many other things that can slow you down on these additions.
My neighbor had an addition put on last year, just about what you are describing, his electrical, just for the addition work was $3,400 plus extras, no service upgrade involved, and that job was done last April, he had 4 EC's bid the job, so that may help you to get an idea, of what the area is bidding.

 

[celtic]

The room addition i think, your missing the fact that there is some old work involved, for example, the smoke detectors will have to be tied into the existing smokes, and you may need to replace all the other smokes, in the home to be compatable, this can eat up some time, and there are many other things that can slow you down on these additions.

Considering this a 2nd flr. addition...adding things to the 1st flr would be relatively easy - just open the 2nd flr. floor (is that correct - are the grammer police "on duty )


There may not even be any (hardwired) smokes on the 1st flr.


I was in the middle of roughing in some plumbing in a bathroom in my house when I read OP - JUST noticed the 4-way set-up :shock: ...that'll be extra:

$50 / switched location ~ 3 = $150
$50 /fixture if NEW....
$75/fixture if existing ($45 to remove, $30 to re-install)

Do the math, add the 10% for misc.., and there you go.


Have you thought about running the tele.,. cable/sat, ethernet/internet?
That'll be extra


These numbers are in North Jersey (Hudson - Bergen - Union, etc) and will be increased very shortly (right after tax time...LOL)

 

[frank_n]

First, thanks for the advice.

Where do get your prices? Is there a book, or from personal experience? I cannot believe that I am so far off your price. I am a 1-man operation; do you think this could be a reason for the price discrepancy? I'm sure that I am missing something when I figure time, and I probably work cheaper.

Last spring, this same GC had a new home built. The EC he used charged $5700 to wire the whole house. That included a 200-amp service and the fixtures (I'm not supplying fixtures). I don't think I will get the job at $5000 +. When you were starting out, did you find estimating the hardest part?

How do you collect the money? I know 10% has to be held back until final. Do you ask for money to start? What percent?

Thanks again for all your help?

Frank

 

[satcom]

There may not even be any (hardwired) smokes on the 1st flr.

Will he need to wire in smokes on the other floors ? , remember they are adding 900sq.


On prices, we have actual records going back to the 50's these show actusl labor units for every task, and material costs, along with job conditions and time variations for each condition, you can purchase pricing guides, there are many companies out there, the better the guide the more expensive.

On price, everyone will be different depending on their overhead, and operating expenses, for companies that are fully insured, with the proper coverages, and have payroll expenses, and liabilities along with a long and expensive list of other operating expenses, their prices will be much higher then someone without all the overhead.

The GC will look for the lowest price he can get, and if your overhead, and expenses are low, or your willing to work for a lower wage, then you may get the job.

Everyone has their own method of payment schedules, we use 40% down and 30% on day of rough inspection and balance on completion, for new GC's, GC,s with a payment record we use much better terms.

 

[frank_n]

Thanks Satcom,

There aren't any smokes on the first floor, but they will be easy to install before the floor is installed.

I agree that my overhead is probably much lower. Since I am a 1-man operation, I have no payroll and only have insurance on me. I bought a 1997 van and I do my own accounting. I realize that I will have to come up with my own unit-prices, but I'd love a reference point. Can you recommend a labor-unit pricing guide?

Frank

 

[growler]

Frank those are some pretty good numbers that Celtic is giving you. I could use those same figures all the way down here in Atlanta and not be the highest bidder. You have to forget about what it cost to wire a new house when you do remodeling and additions. If you try working for the same as new residential construction you won't make gas money. I bid a job this morning that I didn't get but to get the job I would have to drop down to the handyman rate ( I walked ). If you want the job you are bidding why not bump the price up a little, say a grand, to give you some profit and see where it goes. Sometimes a person needs to get that first job under the belt to get some confidence. Good Luck

 

[satcom]

Frank,

I wish i could recommend something, but with using our own actuals, and having good records on job conditions, we have pretty good control over estimates, i am sure there are others that will be posting, that may be able, to recommend a pricing guide that is not too expensive, another thing to consider is take an estimating course, for your CEU's, there are some pretty good ones out there, and they help you structure a real cost base, so your estimates will provide a profit.

There is no set price for any job, some EC control their expenses better then others, some pay their help min wages, and others pay better wages, so prices will be different.

 

[macmikeman]

Watch out for this on the jacuzzi. A lot of the new models have a built in heater that requires a second 20 amp circuit. Plan ahead or find out from the gc for sure which it is, or run the risk of a freebie circuit.

 

[celtic]

Where do get your prices? Is there a book, or from personal experience? I cannot believe that I am so far off your price. I am a 1-man operation; do you think this could be a reason for the price discrepancy? I'm sure that I am missing something when I figure time, and I probably work cheaper.

Many times you will need to adjust your price based on time, time is money and if you don't allot enough hours for the job it's a can of Spagettios for dinner.

You can check your hourly rate fairly easy...but you have to goto a plumbing site in order to (go figure?). Here is a link to help figure your actual cost per hour to stay in business:
Business Owners' Cost Calculator

What makes you think I'm not a one-man-band too?
I charge about $65/hr - same as you....but my time is different. That comes with knowing what you can do in a day - especially when things don't go right.


Many times, I will NOT get the job - based on my numbers....but I'm in this to make money, not just the glory. I figure I get about 30% of the jobs I bid and "walk away" from 10% of them w/o ever giving a price.

Last spring, this same GC had a new home built. The EC he used charged $5700 to wire the whole house. That included a 200-amp service and the fixtures (I'm not supplying fixtures). I don't think I will get the job at $5000 +. When you were starting out, did you find estimating the hardest part?

Did you SEE the actual invoices?
Did the EC "owe" the GC a favor, money, first born, etc?

Estimating is probably THE hardest part (well, collecting money can be a real chore, too). A good starting point is The National Estimator. It's a bare bones estimating program that requires some patience on the users part...BUT, you can edit the pricing as you see fit.
You can buy TNE from amazon or Barnes or Nobles for about $50 - $80....or you can get a free "version" from me - that is if someone is willing to host the zip file.

The free "version" I am talking about is actually from (of all places) the Home Depot. They called it the "Worksite CD". They would give them away at the "pro desk". From what I have heard, they do not do this anymore.
In either case, The National Estimator and the Home Depot's Worksite CD are] the same program! I know - I have them both.
What I like about the HD CD is that every day you use it, it will ask to update the costbook - compared to TNE which does it quarterly (last time I checked)
So if anyone has a place to park a .zip file of 404,997 kb , drop me a line and we will figure out to get it there.

How do you collect the money?

I have a tattoo on my palm - like this one:

By having a decent contract and the ability to "read" people.

I know 10% has to be held back until final.
Do you ask for money to start?
What percent?

You know it has to be 10%? Says who?
NJ does have a law requiring the final payment be witheld until the final inspection - but I know of no percent attached to that requirement.

To start the job (of this size), I would ask for this:
30% at signing/before work begins
30% before calling for rough inspection
25% before calling for final inspection
5% due day of final inspection

All extras, changes, moves must be paid for 100% BEFORE final inspection is called for.

The less you ask for, the more you pay "banker" and give the customer interest free loans. I am not a banker, I am an EC. If they don't have the money let them get a loan...do not become a banker.[/url]

 

[celtic]

Watch out for this on the jacuzzi. A lot of the new models have a built in heater that requires a second 20 amp circuit. Plan ahead or find out from the gc for sure which it is, or run the risk of a freebie circuit.

Funny you say that....
In my own bath that I am renovating, we put in a Jacuzzi - it was an after thought...after I thought I had enough ckts upstairs we decided to add the jacuzzi. Now I need 2 extra circuits in there....BTW, the walls are basically closed.LOL

The best laid plans....

 

[JES2727]

reply

reply

Frank,
I am also in central jersey, and I usually operate as a one-man shop (except for tha last couple of months). When I first started contracting about 2 years ago, I did a few 200A service upgrades in the same price range you are figuring. I learned very quickly that there is no money to be made at those prices, and that was before the cost of materials skyrocketed. I also believe you will not make a dime working for $65 an hour, nor will you make any money at a 10% mark-up on material. Even as a one-man shop you have overhead costs that you may be under-estimating, such as vehicle costs, insurances, taxes, and non-productive time spent related to the job.
All that aside, even if your numbers were higher you'd lose money on this job. 2 bedrooms, a bathroom, 3-way/4-way switches, hard-wired smoke detectors - roughed, trimmed, inspected in 17 hours?? I've gained alot of experience in residential work over the years, but my background is in commercial & industrial work, just like you. There's no way I could do this job in 17 hours. Please take another look at this job, because even as a one-man shop, you'll lose your shirt the way you are figuring it.

John