How far can unfused Service Entrance Condutors Run

[Pierre C Belarge]

Here's a technical bulletin I helped develop for NYS:
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/pdf/servconductlengthTB.pdf

Fred
I have respect for both you and Ron, but this bulletin is poorly worded and basically leaves the decision open to the designer/installer and code official.

"As a practical matter, the location of the disconnecting means and the length of the service entrance conductors should be established by the designer and installer in consultation with the local code enforcement official prior to installation."

This is interpreted to say. "Let the coyote in the chicken house", if you catch my drift.



You are well aware of what is happening with "code officials" in NYS. When you folks developed this bulletin, you might as well have said, Just call the local inspector and he will make the decision...that is just what is happening, with each inspector calling his own shots.
What ever happened to a state wide code??? Talk about "not in my town".
In our area, one of the inspectors is allowing the SE conductors into the building a long ways, as long as it is in RMC. Was this your intent when writing this?
It seems as though the idea behind this bulletin is to let happen what each individual inspector sees fit.
Again, in NYS, an electrical inspector is not required to be from the electrical industry. There are instances where the inspectors are not well versed in the NEC.
It just plain makes me ill. I am contemplating leaving the inspection part of our industry in NY because it is just such a joke.

The vague bulletins (How much consensus is there in designing these code bulletins?)should be halted, and the effort should be concentrated on trying to set a standard in NY for at least a MINIMUM OF SKILLS AND OVERSIGHT for electrical inspectors, so that the work in this great state will rise up to a level of at least mediocrity.

(Not all work here is mediocre...but AT LEAST 50% is)

 

[wireman71]

The 15' WA rule is documented in WA WAC WA Administrative Code. It is 100% code compliant.

 

[tom baker]

In Washington its 15 ft measured by conduit. And the wiring method is restricted to about 8, no cable methods at all, er unless MI is a cable method.

 

[e57]

Depends on the AHJ - a while back I had a photo gallery of a number of them locally here in SF that were 10 - 20 - 40+ Feet though buildings.....

There are two in the picture below - one nearly 100 years old - the other more recent say 30 years. Both are over 35' to the metering and disconnect....

Nothing wrong with it IMO. None of them have burst into flames.... And doubt they ever will for that reason.

Personally I have done ~40'. (Side note all SE conductors are in RMC here...)

 

[e57]

Heres that photogallery I had from a few years back - when talking about this same subject on another forum. Regional differences apply to this greatly - as in some places they are not allowed at all, and others they hardly care as it is so common place.

 

[LarryFine]

How for can unfused service entrance conductors run inside a building?

(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.

Okay, so we all know there are many interpretations of where the disco must be. But that 'outside or nearest inside' description does not say the disco must be fused.

Technically, it doesn't answer Tom's question, which asks about "unfused service entrance conductors."

 

[frenchelectrican]

Here in state of wisconsin

C'est 2 metre max unless you encased in rigide conduit with concrete then C'est almost unlimited legth [ i am not too crazy with unlimted length anyway but it nice you can able reduce the AIC rating somehow ]

Merci,Marc

 

[chris kennedy]

But that 'outside or nearest inside' description does not say the disco must be fused.

Technically, it doesn't answer Tom's question, which asks about "unfused service entrance conductors."

Well I should have added this.

230.91 Location.
The service overcurrent device shall be an integral part of the service disconnecting means or shall be located immediately adjacent thereto.

 

[Teaspoon]

In our area if the Entrance wires do not enter directly into the back of the,
Breaker panel from the meter base.We are allowed 2 ft.of conduit.
This must be Rigid Metal conduit. If more than 2 ft. We must Install A Disconnect. With a disconnect we can use P V C conduit.

 

[3phasico]

10 feet away in union nj ,i just paid $1700 for 400amp 3phase outdoor main breaker, you decide I calle havin juri-power, any other ?

 

[3phasico]

10 feet away in union nj ,I just paid $1700 for 400 amp 3phase main breaker .I called it having juri-power


What are you getting at Tom?[/quote]

 

[wbalsam1]

Fred
I have respect for both you and Ron, but this bulletin is poorly worded and basically leaves the decision open to the designer/installer and code official.

Thanks for the respect, Pierre. You're absolutely correct, i.e., the decision is open to the designer/installer and code official. It was purposefully crafted in that way as a matter of law.

"As a practical matter, the location of the disconnecting means and the length of the service entrance conductors should be established by the designer and installer in consultation with the local code enforcement official prior to installation."

To understand this more fully, Pierre, keep in mind that New York State is a "Home Rule" state.
Beginning in the late 1860's, corporations began amassing huge wealth and power and began exercising their powerful influence into local decision-making processes. Through their power they were able to get the Congress and State legislatures to bestow Constitutional powers to corporations which constricted democracy. Democracy was so constricted at the local municipal level that protection of workers rights, community values, natural resources were prevented at this level. The Constitution of the United States does not mention "Local Governments", yet state laws and federal courts continue to relegate municipalities to a subordinate status that contradicts the Constitutional status of The People. Today, there are 43 states that have laws or provisions within their Constitutions acknowledging the rights of citizens through their local municipal home rule provisions.

This is interpreted to say. "Let the coyote in the chicken house", if you catch my drift.

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I believe the exact opposite.

You are well aware of what is happening with "code officials" in NYS. When you folks developed this bulletin, you might as well have said, Just call the local inspector and he will make the decision...that is just what is happening, with each inspector calling his own shots.

Absolutely. That's the intent behind a democracy. The decision is left to those who are charged with the authority by an elected body. Very democratic. Not a private 3rd party inspector, a code enforcement Official.

What ever happened to a state wide code??? Talk about "not in my town".
In our area, one of the inspectors is allowing the SE conductors into the building a long ways, as long as it is in RMC. Was this your intent when writing this?
It seems as though the idea behind this bulletin is to let happen what each individual inspector sees fit.

The intent was to permit the duly appointed Official to decide. We do have a state wide code. Local Governments are charged with the administration and enforcement of the NYS Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code (which ultimately references the National Electrical Code which is really a Standard). A local government has the option to decline the responsibility by adopting a local law to that effect, in effect passing the responsibility to the local County, on up to the State level.

Again, in NYS, an electrical inspector is not required to be from the electrical industry. There are instances where the inspectors are not well versed in the NEC.

We in the industry need to work at a grass roots level to improve our industry. The industry is at fault for not training the inspectors. Just look at the politics in the inspector's organizations.

It just plain makes me ill. I am contemplating leaving the inspection part of our industry in NY because it is just such a joke.

Don't do it, Pierre. We need people like you out there on the front lines. I know it's discouraging, but tough it out. You are a great asset to us.

The vague bulletins (How much consensus is there in designing these code bulletins?)should be halted, and the effort should be concentrated on trying to set a standard in NY for at least a MINIMUM OF SKILLS AND OVERSIGHT for electrical inspectors, so that the work in this great state will rise up to a level of at least mediocrity.

(Not all work here is mediocre...but AT LEAST 50% is)

Just take a real honest look at what has happened to standards writing organizations and manufacturers. These are huge corporations that have had a tremendous effect on our rights even as they relate to our own homes and businesses. Today, the need has never been greater for communities to assert local democracy and make choices that carry the weight of law about all manner of interest dealing with the quality of life. State legislators and judges in cahoots with corporations and lobbyists have preempted local democracy.

In my little world, Pierre, I am not going to relinquish my power without a fight. That's in large part why I help thoughtful people at the state level to craft these technical bulletins. This particular bulletin came out of a fight with a power company trying to assert how much cable could be within a building in NYS. Sorry, poco. Didn't work. Nice try.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Do you mean that they should enter directly into the disconnect?

Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

 

[wireman71]

15' WA Rule

15' WA Rule

Tom,

I just got done reading the WAC and this is what I found. I want to get this pinned down if it is only EMT that you can use. What section references the wiring methods for this?

Thanks!


WAC 296-46B-230
070 Service disconnecting means.

(b) Inside location: When the service disconnecting means is installed inside the building or structure, it must be located so that the service raceway extends no more than fifteen feet inside the building/structure.

In Washington its 15 ft measured by conduit. And the wiring method is restricted to about 8, no cable methods at all, er unless MI is a cable method.

 

[dcspector]

How for can unfused service entrance conductors run inside a building?

Tom,

I have read this thread and many different allowances and good points from all. I have worked three different jurisdictions and all different from florida, Indiana and now DC. My interp.230.71(A)(1) of nearest the point of entrance is just that "back to back" equipment if unfused. DC allows 15' of unfused SE to enter. I don't agree, but I am legally bound by the DCMR (District of Columbia Municipal Regulations) That SE would have to burn itself clear inside a building before poco's Hi volt/load break fuse would trip and the longer the distance within the structure the greater the possibilities of bodily injury or worse and or serious property damage.

 

[220/221]

No unfused conductors inside in AZ.

That's just crazy :wink:

 

[iwire]

Some of you may have already seen this picture but I think it shows that service conductors can be a problem even in RMC.

That is what is left of a 4" RMC with a service conductor fault. It was probably good that this was outside.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Here we call it the same way that Don does. Though we allow for the riser in the wall, but it must be rigid.

 

[wbalsam1]

"As a practical matter, the location of the disconnecting means and the length of the service entrance conductors should be established by the designer and installer in consultation with the local code enforcement official prior to installation."........

Check back through your National Electrical Code Committee Report on Proposals for the last few cycles and you'll read time and time again phrases like this one from the Panel as it rejects various proposals to "limit" the length: Panel Action: Reject. Panel Statement: It is not possible to specify a distance that would be practical for all installations. The current language provides the AHJ with the appropriate discretion.

The vague bulletins (How much consensus is there in designing these code bulletins?)should be halted, and the effort should be concentrated on trying to set a standard in NY for at least a MINIMUM OF SKILLS AND OVERSIGHT for electrical inspectors, so that the work in this great state will rise up to a level of at least mediocrity.

(Not all work here is mediocre...but AT LEAST 50% is)

The NEC is intentionally "vague" as you call it, on this matter. This bulletin is not vague. A great deal of code research goes into each of these bulletins all the way from staff engineers to the Governors Office of Regulatory Reform. No one at Department of State Codes Division is even thinking about halting Technical Bulletins.
Do you truly believe that 50% of the work performed in New York State is mediocre? :-?

 

[stickboy1375]

Lets face it, there is no right or wrong answer on this subject, but IMSO, lets keep them as short as possible for the obvious reasons...