How to change to photoeye instead of time clock?

[kwired]

A co-worker just got busted by the inspector for this. He had to go back and loop the neutrals through the enclosure to make it compliant.

Can you tell the code that was cited?

My guess is a misunderstanding of the intention of 404.2(C), nothing is wrong with the installation that is topic of this thread when it comes to requiring a neutral conductor in that enclosure. 404 doesn't even apply to the lighting contactor, but if this were a switch that 404 applied to - there is space in raceways to be able to pull a neutral in there if one were ever needed, which is permitted to leave it that way, one of the enclosures does have a neutral passing through it from what I can tell.

 

[sparkyrick]

Can you tell the code that was cited?

My guess is a misunderstanding of the intention of 404.2(C), nothing is wrong with the installation that is topic of this thread when it comes to requiring a neutral conductor in that enclosure. 404 doesn't even apply to the lighting contactor, but if this were a switch that 404 applied to - there is space in raceways to be able to pull a neutral in there if one were ever needed, which is permitted to leave it that way, one of the enclosures does have a neutral passing through it from what I can tell.

He had two conduits to the contactor enclosure; lines in the top conduit, loads in the bottom conduit. If you turned off every circuit but one, you end up with one current carrying conductor in the conduit, which is a violation of 330.20(a).

 

[kwired]

He had two conduits to the contactor enclosure; lines in the top conduit, loads in the bottom conduit. If you turned off every circuit but one, you end up with one current carrying conductor in the conduit, which is a violation of 330.20(a).

I thought of that scenario but hadn't thought of how to respond to it yet especially when looking at the same thing in the photos on this thread - in particular the right contactor in those photos. I kept thinking I needed to see more that isn't in the photo to determine if this is a violation or not for the install pictured in this thread. I guess if the circuits controlled are all 277 volts then it is likely a violation, if they would all be 480 volts then it is likely fine.

 

[gar]

150907-1351 EDT

ksstang:

I have read some of this thread, and I have some questions and comments.

How does the contactor work, and what are the limitations? What measurements or datasheet analysis have you done to find out this information?

Same questions on the time clock.

A latching relay that is truely bi-stable and requires no power to maintain either state may have a limitation on the continuous power that can be applied to the actuator (coil). Probably determined from a datasheet, but might be deduced by observation of the circuit. I believe at some point you questioned the voltage of the control cicuitry. It is clearly 120 V base upon one of the Sq-D photos. If the relay coil can not be continuously powered, then you must provide some sort of pulse excitation to change state.

A voltmeter and some observation of the operation of the circuit will provide some information.

How the time clock works may provide some information about the logic required to control the contactor.

Assume your relay (contactor) is a mechanically bi-stable type with set and reset coils that can be continuously powered, than a photo-switch with a SPDT is all that is needed. If the photo-switch is only a single pole normally open type, then add a SPDT relay to its output.

If you require momentary pulse operation, then add a pulse generator to each output of the SPDT output. There are time delay relays that will do the function. Another way uses a DPDT contact structure, or one NO and one NC contact as separate contacts, two capacitors, two resistors, and one diode to produce the two separate pulses. See if you can figure out how to do this, and select the componrnts.

Other good ideas have been provided to you throughout the thread.

.

 

[infinity]

A co-worker just got busted by the inspector for this. He had to go back and loop the neutrals through the enclosure to make it compliant.

I have heard of this too where the neutral conductors were required to be looped through the contactor along with each associated hot leg and switch leg.

 

[Smart $]

I have heard of this too where the neutral conductors were required to be looped through the contactor along with each associated hot leg and switch leg.

Yessir.... required if hot leg and switch leg are in separate conduits. Run them in same conduit and neutrals are not required.

 

[GoldDigger]

I have heard of this too where the neutral conductors were required to be looped through the contactor along with each associated hot leg and switch leg.

Which is odd if the neutral is current carrying rather than just associated with the same branch.
It would result in unbalanced current somewhere in the box.
If the hot and neutral come in via one cable or raceway, there would be no need for both a hot and a switch leg going to the fixture.
I am confused.

 

[Smart $]

Which is odd if the neutral is current carrying rather than just associated with the same branch.
It would result in unbalanced current somewhere in the box.

Not in the box but in the conduits.

If the hot and neutral come in via one cable or raceway, there would be no need for both a hot and a switch leg going to the fixture.
I am confused.

Hot leg comes into box and doesn't leave. Switch leg takes its place and leaves with neutral.

 

[GoldDigger]

Not in the box but in the conduits.


Hot leg comes into box and doesn't leave. Switch leg takes its place and leaves with neutral.

Got it.
If hot leg came in and switch leg (feed to fixture) went out a different raceway, then without a neutral both would be unbalanced.

 

[kwired]

Got it.
If hot leg came in and switch leg (feed to fixture) went out a different raceway, then without a neutral both would be unbalanced.

If line going out goes directly to the load you will have both conductors in it. Problem is when there is a nipple from a gutter, panel, etc. to a controller and they bring all the "hots" in one raceway and exit with all the "switched" conductors in another raceway, but never bring the associated neutral into the enclosure.

 

[Joel Sumrall]

Ok, well, I am perfectly capable of doing the work, I was just confused at the moment. If I'm thinking properly wouldn't you take 120 out to the photoeye, and then the other side of the photoeye back to the 120v side of the contactors?

Yes.

Your power from the breaker would feed the black to the photocell and the feed to the coil would tie in with the red on the photocell. The white to the white. (neutral)

 

[GerryB]

Ok guys-- I am getting confused here--If I read the OP correctly he wants to install a Photo cell in place of the time clock and he has the room to run conduit to the exterior--so--(bonding/grounding is assumed to be done)

Why not just run a piece of 1/2 inch to the exterior, mount a photo cell and then bring a hot/neutral to the cell and the switch leg back to one of the contactors then jump over to the other contactor --sun goes down lights come on and stay on till the sun comes up--problem solved with out the need for 2 photo cells or latching relays etc.??

Or just use a seasonal clock as was suggested, simply remove the old one and re-install the new

As you all may have guessed, I am a fan of keep it simple--so maybe I have over simplified it , but......

I'd attach a drawing but can't figure out how to :?

Can't you just feed back to the time clock, remove the trippers and leave it in the on position?, or they absolutely want the clock out of there.

 

[gar]

151111-2227 EST

ksstang:

Its been a long time. Have you solved your problem? What was your solution and what problems did you encounter?

.

 

[MechEdetour]

151111-2227 EST

ksstang:

Its been a long time. Have you solved your problem? What was your solution and what problems did you encounter?

.

Curious myself too.
Read through this bad boy and with the 50 suggestions I would like to know what route the OP went.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Ok guys-- I am getting confused here--If I read the OP correctly he wants to install a Photo cell in place of the time clock and he has the room to run conduit to the exterior--so--(bonding/grounding is assumed to be done)

Why not just run a piece of 1/2 inch to the exterior, mount a photo cell and then bring a hot/neutral to the cell and the switch leg back to one of the contactors then jump over to the other contactor --sun goes down lights come on and stay on till the sun comes up--problem solved with out the need for 2 photo cells or latching relays etc.??

Or just use a seasonal clock as was suggested, simply remove the old one and re-install the new

As you all may have guessed, I am a fan of keep it simple--so maybe I have over simplified it , but......

I'd attach a drawing but can't figure out how to :?

That's exactly how a contractor wired up one of my buildings... The TOD schedule for the exterior lighting was on my EMS, tied to a thermostat control module on the 1st floor, which crapped out, EMS company wanted $4K to replace the module. There was a photocell on the roof to override the EMS on occasion, getting dark during storms, etc., that was bypassed. Installed a photocell on the building exterior in a FS box.