How to charge for troubleshooting?

[ritelec]

Hello all.

I went to trouble shoot a 3 way and 1 pole switch last week as per a phone call. The owner said they were jiggled and not working right
Turns out the lighting for those switches and six receptacles are out.

It one of those add a level (and more) capes. 2nd floor bed of 3 bed and bath.
Checked power from panel. Opened and checked boxes around the other rooms on second floor.
Boxes under rent the room on the first floor.
Maybe there's a buried box. Maybe a box buried by a high hat ? Screw in the wire?

The owner said the lights went out. Then once two years ago they just came on in the. Ignt when he was in bed. Then went out again. ( two years ago !!!! He didn't say anything like that over the phone)

As I was working on this he mentioned even calling several of my " competitors" in the past and no one would even come out.


I'm thinking about going back and trying again. Besides opening many boxes I also hooked up a radio to a dead receptacle and banged other receptacles with the back of my hand and areas of walls and ceilings ?

I'm thinking about hooking up a heater load to a dead receptacle neutral and turn it on and off to locate the neutral and circuit at the panel (amp probe)and confirm what else may be on that circuit and if workng may the problem is at that box ??

So if there are any trouble shooting suggestions that would be welcome
But the basic question is how do you charge for trouble shooting?
I've got three hours into it. Not sure how I can charge him for nothing even though it was a something. And don't want to look into it anymore for free.

If I can't locate the problem I'm thinking to back feed part of the circuit. But even that would in tale reopening these boxes to attempt locating which wire is which as to try not to back feed the existing bad splice or break.

Suggestions. Thank you

 

[ritelec]

Two things,
I apologize for the type'Os. My fat fingers and iphone and spell check don't play well together at times.
I did a search with iphone and for some reason nothing came up. I'm on the desk top now and the search produced some results.

 

[kwired]

Hello all.

I went to trouble shoot a 3 way and 1 pole switch last week as per a phone call. The owner said they were jiggled and not working right
Turns out the lighting for those switches and six receptacles are out.

It one of those add a level (and more) capes. 2nd floor bed of 3 bed and bath.
Checked power from panel. Opened and checked boxes around the other rooms on second floor.
Boxes under rent the room on the first floor.
Maybe there's a buried box. Maybe a box buried by a high hat ? Screw in the wire?

The owner said the lights went out. Then once two years ago they just came on in the. Ignt when he was in bed. Then went out again. ( two years ago !!!! He didn't say anything like that over the phone)

As I was working on this he mentioned even calling several of my " competitors" in the past and no one would even come out.


I'm thinking about going back and trying again. Besides opening many boxes I also hooked up a radio to a dead receptacle and banged other receptacles with the back of my hand and areas of walls and ceilings ?

I'm thinking about hooking up a heater load to a dead receptacle neutral and turn it on and off to locate the neutral and circuit at the panel (amp probe)and confirm what else may be on that circuit and if workng may the problem is at that box ??

So if there are any trouble shooting suggestions that would be welcome
But the basic question is how do you charge for trouble shooting?
I've got three hours into it. Not sure how I can charge him for nothing even though it was a something. And don't want to look into it anymore for free.

If I can't locate the problem I'm thinking to back feed part of the circuit. But even that would in tale reopening these boxes to attempt locating which wire is which as to try not to back feed the existing bad splice or break.

Suggestions. Thank you

Tell owner you already have X number of hours into looking for problem and have yet to find it.
Tell him you should charge him Y dollars for work done so far.
Then give him a estimate of Z to just install a new circuit to replace what is not working and maybe negotiate some on the Y figure just to make him think you are not trying to hose him.

If he doesn't like that walk away like the others before have - you lose on this project either way might as well quit before the losses add up to even more.

 

[JDB3]

Since there is no telling how the circuit is ran, I would first check the continuity of the dead openings, to verify that they are all on the same circuit.
6 plugs & one set of lights, may or may not be all on one circuit.
Turn all the power off the the panel, and see if you have continuity back to the "source".
Go from there.
As stated above, let the owner know, that like a car mechanic, you have a hourly rate for troubleshooting the system.

 

[K8MHZ]

If you love troubleshooting, anything you charge is fair to you.

If you hate it, there isn't enough money in the world that would be fair to you.

I love it, so I charge by the hour and am lenient. In fact, I would be very happy if that was all I did.

If the customer sees you spending hours and hours and not coming up with an answer, they understandably will be hesitant to pay for that.

I have a good deal invested in cable tracers, breaker locators, various meters and meggers, etc. so my idle time is rare, but it still does happen. There are times when you may just have to work for knowledge, not money, just to stay on the job long enough to figure it out.

I have found that sticking with it is worth it, and will make money in the future.

 

[K8MHZ]

As stated above, let the owner know, that like a car mechanic, you have a hourly rate for troubleshooting the system.

In Michigan it's against the law to charge hourly on cars. Written estimates have to be given for work over $30, and the work can't exceed $30 of the written estimate.

I used to work for Chrysler dealerships. I got tired of getting screwed on my pay so I came into industrial maintenance.

 

[petersonra]

good luck. let us know what you find.

 

[ritelec]

Thank you all.... I let you know what happens.

 

[gar]

141124-0859 EST

ritelec:

Tools --- long extension cord, preferably #12, 0.1 V resolution AC voltmeter, 1500 W 120 V small cheap heater, some way to connect into main panel with the extension cord, misc other items.

The extension cord is a long test lead to your meter, and also a means for a EGC, neutral, and hot that is known good at wherever you want to test.

Use the extension cord EGC as your primary reference test lead to the main panel. My measurements below would be slightly lower if my reference was at the main panel neutral bus.

With the high impedance meter check voltage of hot and neutral at anyone of the outlets that is not working. If you get a good voltage very close to the hot of the extension cord hot, then hot may be good at this point.

Next connect the 1500 W heater from the bad outlet hot to the extension cord neutral, still use extension EGC as meter reference, and measure hot voltage of bad outlet. If hot is good, meaning not too many volts drop, then hot conductor is probably good to at least this outlet.

Next use extension cord hot to feed the heater, and connect the other side of heater to the bad outlet neutral. Measure extension cord EGC to bad outlet neutral. This voltage should not be excessive.

These tests may identify whether you have a branch circuit hot or neutral problem, or possibly both.

Doing these tests at various points on the branch circuit should help you isolate the problem area.

You may have more than one problem.

Not quite the same test ---
About 0.4 V change across hot to neutral with 8 A load near my main panel.
About 2.0 V change at my bench. This path includes four more breakers in series.
About 1.1 V change on different bench that eliminates two of the four series breakers.
All the above include the breakers in the main panel. Load used was an 8 A hot air gun on high heat.

To a remote outlet, but not the most remote ---
About 0.7 V change. Only one breaker between main panel and outlet.

Most circuits in my house consist of main fuse, breaker to sub panel, and finally a breaker in the subpanel. From main to subpanels is #6, and #12 from subpanel to outlet. There are a few circuits that are fed directly from the main panel.

If you have long #14 runs then drop will be greater.

.

 

[growler]

So if there are any trouble shooting suggestions that would be welcome
But the basic question is how do you charge for trouble shooting?

I have a good deal invested in cable tracers, breaker locators, various meters and meggers, etc. so my idle time is rare, but it still does happen.

A service electrician should charge normal rates to trouble-shoot. A service electrician should have certain equipment and know how to use it.

If you are on a job for three hours and don't know any more than when you started then you haven't been trouble-shooting.

The first thing to determine is which circuit/circuits that you are dealing with and this will let you know if it's all or part of the circuit that's not working. Once you know which circuit you are dealing with you can use a cable tracer from the last known good section of cable to the break.

This one job may pay for a good portion of the cost of a cable tracer.

 

[ritelec]

If you are on a job for three hours and don't know any more than when you started then you haven't been trouble-shooting.

Sure I have....

I know where it's not

Whats also a terrible thing is everything about this jobs wiring is terrible .

NM... loosely twisted grounds with no nuts or crimp lugs. Exposed round boxes in basement with many nm's in them, no covers, 2" leads.
switch and receptacle boxes back stabbed... the strip for the stabbs are about an inch long with a bunch of tape not around receptacle like you might think, but around the exposed copper from the long strips.
boxes have 2 " of wire or 12 " of wire in same box.
Bx and older bx.. short leads at box, brittle..

I'm usually pretty good at this.. skill? skill and luck ?.. with no tracer.

Been looking into studd finder tracers ($50).. Not sure if it would do the trick. Not sure if I want to spend a bundle on an actual "professional" kit as I never needed it except for whats going on here.


Yes gar... I was considering running a wire from the basement panel up stairs to a heater where I could turn the heater on and off to identify which neutral to locate which circuit.

But unless i can find that known circuit and trace it back to a working "box".. if the problem is in a buried box.. I'd never find it.

He's got a couple odd jobs I may do and decide when I'm there what I'm going to do.

In my minds eye, theres a highhat that I'm thinking about removing to see if there's any thing there.. (thinking ??? maybe not..)

This was friday when I went there, figured I'd maybe hit it with a freash head next week. Well it's next week but my head ain't fresh

I'll let ya's know.. thanks again

Rich

 

[ritelec]

This one job may pay for a good portion of the cost of a cable tracer.

Recommendations ?

 

[Cletis]

I have a little homemade method I discovered by accident one day. I use my nice fluke meter in NCV mode and do a circle around each outlet. It will tell me if there are hots coming and going out of each rec. When I hit one coming in but not going out then I open that one and usually it's an open hot in box. Of course, if it's an open neutral then that's another story

 

[growler]

Sure I have....

I know where it's not

Whats also a terrible thing is everything about this jobs wiring is terrible .

I know exactly what you are talking about. I went to a house the other day that was wired in 1950 but that was not the problem, since 1950 I don't think anyone has done anything right in the whole house (totally rigged). Power out in upstairs beds rooms and turns out the break is in a garage door opener receptacle box in the basement.

 

[ritelec]

I know exactly what you are talking about. I went to a house the other day that was wired in 1950 but that was not the problem, since 1950 I don't think anyone has done anything right in the whole house (totally rigged). Power out in upstairs beds rooms and turns out the break is in a garage door opener receptacle box in the basement.

I was thinking about checking there (the garage), but it's detached. And I'm still thinking about checking there !!!

I have a little homemade method I discovered by accident one day. I use my nice fluke meter in NCV mode and do a circle around each outlet. It will tell me if there are hots coming and going out of each rec. When I hit one coming in but not going out then I open that one and usually it's an open hot in box. Of course, if it's an open neutral then that's another story

My fluke is very old.. no non contact voltage setting.

wondering, how does it tell power is in and out?

 

[ritelec]

Anyone else having issues connecting.. try with safari and firefox and occasionally (quite often the past couple weeks) sever can not be found?

 

[Sierrasparky]

Anyone else having issues connecting.. try with safari and firefox and occasionally (quite often the past couple weeks) sever can not be found?

I am on occasion.
I started a post a while back that got Hijacked. :?

 

[growler]

If you love troubleshooting, anything you charge is fair to you.

If you hate it, there isn't enough money in the world that would be fair to you.

I do love to trouble-shoot but only because people pay me to do it ( I guess it's money that I really like).

 

[Cletis]

I was thinking about checking there (the garage), but it's detached. And I'm still thinking about checking there !!!



My fluke is very old.. no non contact voltage setting.

wondering, how does it tell power is in and out?

This is the one I use and only one that works behind drywall for some reason. I just press and hold that center NCV button and circle around box til I pick up emf from a hot wire.

 

[GoldDigger]

You cannot distinguish power in from power out by looking at the voltage with an NCV. But it only one wire shows hot you can be pretty confident it is going in, not coming out.
The one problem I can see, other than switch legs in one cable, would a circuit through the back of the box. Possibly to another back to back box or outside.