Human Nature?

[emahler]

How come people, and in this case I mean Electrical Contractors, would rather pull people down to their level, instead of raise themselves up?

for example...rather than raising rates to make money in this industry, guys would rather be smart and ridicule contractors who charge enough?

instead of increasing your knowledge and service in order to justify higher rates, they would rather say "can't be done" and keep their status quo?

is that what this industry has become?

 

[cschmid]

I believe one of the reasons you see the industry like this is because in my opinion here..When people go into business they do not have a plan..I for one would like to see peoples motivation for going into business..I am an employee but why is it you are in business what is the plan..

 

[emahler]

another thought...we are an industry full of the guys from the back of the classroom...the ones who in high school would sit as far from the teacher as possible, and make fun of the nerds in the front of the room...we would sit back there and make jokes, and talk to girls, and generally not pay attention...lest we be considered 'un-cool'

well, now we are the same way...let's sit in the back and make fun of the contractors who are trying to learn, trying to make their lives (and their employees lives) better...

let's get angry at them for making it harder for us to just skate by...

this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a general industry image, even beyond this board....probably worse beyond this board, at least the guys here care somewhat...

 

[emahler]

I believe one of the reasons you see the industry like this is because in my opinion here..When people go into business they do not have a plan..I for one would like to see peoples motivation for going into business..I am an employee but why is it you are in business what is the plan..

that's a huge part of it...i think a good percentage of guys who go out on your own, do so simply because they are not good at what they do...they can't keep a job or make the money they want...so they pass a test and go out on their own to get rich...without a plan...

 

[wirebender]

How come people, and in this case I mean Electrical Contractors, would rather pull people down to their level, instead of raise themselves up?

for example...rather than raising rates to make money in this industry, guys would rather be smart and ridicule contractors who charge enough?

Maybe it's a defense mechanism because when they say they only charge 50 - 60 dollars an hour they get ridiculed and called hacks and trunk slammers by those who charge more? As if what you charge has anything to do with how well you do your work.

 

[emahler]

Maybe it's a defense mechanism because when they say they only charge 50 - 60 dollars an hour they get ridiculed and called hacks and trunk slammers by those who charge more? As if what you charge has anything to do with how well you do your work.

that's because a legit contractor who actually figures his pricing (not a SWAG) can't make money at that rate - not honestly anyway..

 

[wirebender]

that's because a legit contractor who actually figures his pricing (not a SWAG) can't make money at that rate - not honestly anyway..

See? You're implying that they aren't legit and that they are dishonest.

Then you wonder why they strike back.:roll:


edit to add "wonder"

 

[nakulak]

How come people, and in this case I mean Electrical Contractors, would rather pull people down to their level, instead of raise themselves up?

for example...rather than raising rates to make money in this industry, guys would rather be smart and ridicule contractors who charge enough?

instead of increasing your knowledge and service in order to justify higher rates, they would rather say "can't be done" and keep their status quo?

is that what this industry has become?

I hope this is not viewed as a personal attack, but who the hell do you think you are to tell other people how to run their business ?

People go into business for different reasons. Sure, some just end up going into business for themselves with no plan, some aspire to be mom and pop shops, and some guys want to go for the gusto and try to take over the world. Its survival of the fittest, and as long as their electrical installations are safe and professional, its only up to themselves how they run their business, what they charge, and what they aspire to.

I find your post not only ludicrous, but intellectually offensive from the implicit comments that indicate that you think that anyone should raise themselves up to being as good as you, or the simple notion that you believe if they don't charge what you do then they can't possibly be as knowledgeable or as good as you.

People charge what they can. Hopefully they charge what the market will bear, and stay in business.

If some guys want to model their business like a Harvard business school fortune 500 business model, well that's their choice. If some guys want to operate out of their truck and don't want all that overhead, that is their choice. Some guys are not out to take over the world, and its not up to you to preach to them about why their business plan sucks, and why its not good enough for you.

And by the way, this industry started out as a bunch of foreigners who knew nothing about electricity stringing lines in cities and mostly electrocuting themselves, because they didn't have a clue about how electricity worked (I'm talking about the original lineman). So, no matter how you look at it, the industry has come a long, long, long way from where it started.

 

[emahler]

See? You're implying that they aren't legit and that they are dishonest.

Then you why they strike back.:roll:

legit meaning accounting for things like insurance (business) and taxes...

honest meaning not charging 4 hr minimums because they have an artificially low rate (how can billing 12 hrs a day, but only working 6 be considered honest)

 

[emahler]

I hope this is not viewed as a personal attack, but who the hell do you think you are to tell other people how to run their business ?

People go into business for different reasons. Sure, some just end up going into business for themselves with no plan, some aspire to be mom and pop shops, and some guys want to go for the gusto and try to take over the world. Its survival of the fittest, and as long as their electrical installations are safe and professional, its only up to themselves how they run their business, what they charge, and what they aspire to.

I find your post not only ludicrous, but intellectually offensive from the implicit comments that indicate that you think that anyone should raise themselves up to being as good as you, or the simple notion that you believe if they don't charge what you do then they can't possibly be as knowledgeable or as good as you.

People charge what they can. Hopefully they charge what the market will bear, and stay in business.

If some guys want to model their business like a Harvard business school fortune 500 business model, well that's their choice. If some guys want to operate out of their truck and don't want all that overhead, that is their choice. Some guys are not out to take over the world, and its not up to you to preach to them about why their business plan sucks, and why its not good enough for you.

And by the way, this industry started out as a bunch of foreigners who knew nothing about electricity stringing lines in cities and mostly electrocuting themselves, because they didn't have a clue about how electricity worked (I'm talking about the original lineman). So, no matter how you look at it, the industry has come a long, long, long way from where it started.

no offense taken...run your business how you want...but if this thread makes you think about how you are doing business, i reached my goal...status quo is a bad thing....

edit to add: think about your post...i'm not telling guys to cut their pricing and go on welfare...i'm telling them to learn, to educate themselves, to raise their rates and improve their standard of living...and this ticks you off? what's wrong with you?

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I'd hazard a guess most people go into business for themselves after they've determined they will never reach their goals by working for someone else. They may not have much of a business plan, but that pales in comparison to treading water your entire life and getting nowhere.

 

[Overkill]

I wish there was an ignore option, this guy and his holier than thou preaching is getting old.

 

[shwazqrt]

Hey Guyz... ... chill out ....

emahler : you are right ... but i think running business is like running your village ... you want it as perfect as you dream about but, it won't coz businesses affect other ones, and you may have a good day and the rest of the year you will keep fighting and you will do whatever it takes to keep your business alive.......!!

nakulak : it is your opinion and i respect it ... but emahler has a good point of view...

i think no need for going further in this thread

 

[iwire]

edit to add: think about your post...i'm not telling guys to cut their pricing and go on welfare...i'm telling them to learn, to educate themselves, to raise their rates and improve their standard of living...and this ticks you off? what's wrong with you?

The message is OK, it is how you present it.

Here is how I hear your message.

Run your business like I run mine, if you do not you are not a legitimate business person or your just plain stupid.

That may not be what your trying to say but it is how I perceive it and I imagine others do as well.

but who the hell do you think you are to tell other people how to run their business ?

I don't even run a business and that is what comes to my mind most times I read the threads you start.

Let me ask this.

Do you like to be given unsolicited advice about how you run your personal affairs?

Can I tell you how to run you home finances, how about how to raise your kids, how to talk to your wife?

Seriously, how do you take outsiders telling you how to do anything even when it is good advice?

 

[jrannis]

http://forums.mikeholt.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1334&stc=1&d=1204977184

How about this guy. He is proud to show everyone how he reused the FPE panel. And charged the HO $700.00 for a service upgrade.

 

[electricmanscott]

I wish there was an ignore option, this guy and his holier than thou preaching is getting old.

It is always the truth that irks people the most. Don't like it don't read it, that's your ignore button.

Emahler is 100% correct in his "preachings". Rather than cry about it, some of the guys here should read his stuff and realize how valuable the information is and that it can only help you in the long run.

And yes, if you are charging $50.00 - $60.00 an hour you pretty much have to be working 80 hours a week to make any money or you are not running a legit business.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

It would be interesting to know how many guys start a business without having ever seen how a business is operated (on the books side) or how work is generated.

I started a business twice. Once in 1978. I had no clue at all. I made it about a year before I went back to work for someone else. In 1980 I went to work for a company that had multiple departments and each department was operated like a separate business. (This caused a lot of problems internally, but it kept us getting prices near the top of the market). Watching at 1st, then taking a managers position (of one of the departments) I was able to obtain a tremendous amount of knowledge on the operation of a business. I was lucky. That experience has allowed me to go back on my own in 1996 and to make money when the market was hot, and now that it is cooling, I understand what I need to do and when.

I believe a majority of ECs are like I was in 1978. They don't have experience running a business and they don't have any formal training. They are probably some of the best electricians around, but struggle with business operations.

A lot of us (me included) get panicky when work slows. It's natural. The market is tight. Electricians get laid off. They figure they can work from home w/no overhead and make more than they did before. You know what, they can! And....... they can do it for less than the guy that has a shop, an advertising expense, office support, etc. The market gets saturated with electrically qualified but inexperienced business people opening shop. It's called the free market. If you as a business owner cannot compete with legitimate contractors that are just trying to keep busy and make decent money then it is you that has the problem.

You don't set the price, the market does. It's up to us to try to know where the upper limit of the market is. I try to hit that ceiling as often as I can. It's my job to price it where I can pay my bills, and make it through the hard times. So far, I've done my job OK. If I can work from a home office, charge 75% of what you do, pay all my taxes and insurances (just like you), and put 25% more than you on the bottom line, who's the "better" business man?

The market will bear what the market will bear. It's up to you to know what that number is and how you can make money from it. Don't belittle the small guy that has found a way to make money just because you can't.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

And yes, if you are charging $50.00 - $60.00 an hour you pretty much have to be working 80 hours a week to make any money or you are not running a legit business.

Or, you have our bills paid, just trying to make some pocket money and the business plan is to let your good work and low prices be your sales tool. I agree they could make more, and it would be nice for everyone if they did, but it's a free market. That's the way free markets work. Supply and demand. Right now, the demand is dropping and the supply is rising. What happens to prices during the phenomenon?

 

[nakulak]

I think there is some good advice here, and I think Bob probably hit the nail on the head.

In deference to the thread, I thought this was particularly funny (its not about horses, its about businesses):
http://www.thehumorarchives.com/joke/Beating_a_Dead_Horse

 

[emahler]

Overkill - there is an ignore option...i have some people here on it...click on my name, and along the top, under last activity, there will be the words "add emahler to ignore list" just click on that, and you don't have to read....

bob - it's the internet, we aren't sitting down having a discussion...honestly my goal is to get as many people to think as possible...i'm not selling anything, i'm not providing anything special...i'm just trying to make you think...i'm trying to get the information out as directly as possible for the guys who want to help themselves.....you yourself should understand this...if i was charging money for people to come to my seminars, i'd be a lot let abrasive...but frankly, most guys on this site, need that abrasiveness to jar them into any thought process about this topic...it's out of their comfort zone and it's not status quo...

heck, i'm not even saying that you have to do business this way...i'm saying don't dismiss this way because you don't understand it...

as most people know, i no longer have a horse in the resi service race...doesn't matter to me what guys do or don't do...

but there are enough guys on this board and other who thought about it, learned about it, and implemented a system based on Frank Blau, and have done better than they ever imagined with it...good for them...for the guys who think the goal is to work hard for cheap...good luck...