Hypothetical question

[K8MHZ]

I think the word "omission" although not expressly stated there is implied.

"Felony is defined under the code as an act or omission punishable by law, committed through culpa or dolo. [1] The words “punishable by law" means that theact or omission must be defined and punished by the Revised Penal Code and no other law."

I think that, had the electrician done nothing about about a hazardous situation, that could reasonably be described as an act of omission.
Perhaps a parallel is not puting labels on electrical panels warning of danger of electrocution - and someone then getting electrocuted because you omitted to do so.

Well, let's take a look at the precedents.

Has there ever been an observer of poor or possibly hazardous electrical workmanship charged and convicted with a crime for not reporting said workmanship to the owner, or the AHJ?

If there has been, we need to look at the details of the case.

If there hasn't been, what does that say?

 

[Besoeker]

Well, let's take a look at the precedents.

Has there ever been an observer of poor or possibly hazardous electrical workmanship charged and convicted with a crime for not reporting said workmanship to the owner, or the AHJ?

If there has been, we need to look at the details of the case.

If there hasn't been, what does that say?

Every safety course I've been on have cited cases where an act of ommission has resulted in charges.

One was a guy using a ladder on a fork lift to reach lighting. Silly and dangerous but it was the fork lift operator who was charged. He had left the key of the fork lift in it when he went for a break.

My point is that the electrician cannot risk the do nothing option.

 

[K8MHZ]

Every safety course I've been on have cited cases where an act of ommission has resulted in charges.

One was a guy using a ladder on a fork lift to reach lighting. Silly and dangerous but it was the fork lift operator who was charged. He had left the key of the fork lift in it when he went for a break.

My point is that the electrician cannot risk the do nothing option.

First, UK law is going to be different than US law.

Second, what has a fork lift operator leaving a key in the ignition got to do with not reporting work done by someone else with their own tools?

Let's say someone did get injured as a result of the poor work done in the OP's OT.

Who's fault would it be?

A) The person that did the work?

B) The person that owns the work?

C) The person that was using obviously bad electrical components, but got hurt anyway?

D) An electrician that looked at the work, noticed the bad work, and was not hired to fix it and has no other access to that work?

Again, what I am looking for is US precedence that involves an observer not hired to repair the work being charged with the injury of a person not under their control.

Leaving labels off work you performed is not the same.

Leaving keys in a fork lift you were driving is not the same.

I have taken many safety courses over the decades, and not one has mentioned danger of liability for not reporting poor work done by someone not under their control. I can't tell you how many times I have walked past light posts in the city with missing hand hole covers and visible wire nut connections. If someone stuck their hand in there and got poked, do you really think that everyone that noticed the hand hole cover missing would be liable for the injury?

Maybe in the UK, but not here. Of course, that may explain why I have seen so many of them over the years.......

 

[gadfly56]

First, UK law is going to be different than US law.

Second, what has a fork lift operator leaving a key in the ignition got to do with not reporting work done by someone else with their own tools?

Let's say someone did get injured as a result of the poor work done in the OP's OT.

Who's fault would it be?

A) The person that did the work?

B) The person that owns the work?

C) The person that was using obviously bad electrical components, but got hurt anyway?

D) An electrician that looked at the work, noticed the bad work, and was not hired to fix it and has no other access to that work?

Again, what I am looking for is US precedence that involves an observer not hired to repair the work being charged with the injury of a person not under their control.

Leaving labels off work you performed is not the same.

Leaving keys in a fork lift you were driving is not the same.

I have taken many safety courses over the decades, and not one has mentioned danger of liability for not reporting poor work done by someone not under their control. I can't tell you how many times I have walked past light posts in the city with missing hand hole covers and visible wire nut connections. If someone stuck their hand in there and got poked, do you really think that everyone that noticed the hand hole cover missing would be liable for the injury?

Maybe in the UK, but not here. Of course, that may explain why I have seen so many of them over the years.......

One of the principles of US tort law is that fault is more heavily found with the party who had the last chance to avoid the accident. If you see it and don't say anything, you are going to be sharing the hurt locker with others. If you see it and report it to someone in responsible authority (in this case could be the tenant, the owner, or the management company) then you have passed the potato.

 

[K8MHZ]

One of the principles of US tort law is that fault is more heavily found with the party who had the last chance to avoid the accident. If you see it and don't say anything, you are going to be sharing the hurt locker with others. If you see it and report it to someone in responsible authority (in this case could be the tenant, the owner, or the management company) then you have passed the potato.

I would question whether or not a person that was not allowed access to the wiring after seeing it would be in a position to avoid accidental contact with it causing injury.

Of the four choices I gave, all but the last actually has access to the wiring and all three had a real chance to 'avoid the accident'.

Again, I am open to changing my mind if someone can actually show me a case that is like the OP's scenerio where someone got charged with not reporting an unsafe electrical condition existing in a residence.

 

[Esthy]

Using peterlarsen.suntec "quote"

Using peterlarsen.suntec "quote"

I wrote a letter, my apologies for my idiomatic expression and grammar. I XXXX the names. I sent copies to Fire Department, Code Enforcement, Tax Divisions, registrar of contractors and others. I used peterlarsen.suntec "quote" on the top of the letter (thanks, same opinion as you) And I thanks everyone here because you are the professionals that help! Here is the letter; I know, it is too long, but the situation required it.

“If you are certified by a licensing board, or industry recognized training organization, and you see a hazardous condition you could be liable. Even, if you just casually observed the condition, not in a professional role”

Dear Mr. XXXX,

As a Broker of XXXXXXX Real Estate I appeal to you for the last time for your intervention in the matter of the Invoices/proposals as your company refuses to pay the taxes on the invoices and the hazard conditions of two (2) of the three (3) properties that I visited. Statistically, two (2) hazards on three (3) properties make 66.67% of your properties that you managed in hazards conditions.

I sent the invoices for full payments, as our agreements, and Mrs. XXXXX deducted the City/State taxes from the invoices and sent the checks without those tax monies.

You have to pay those taxes, tax money is the one that keep going this country, I don’t care if you avoid taxes so that you can live in luxury surrounds, but not from my work”

Hazard conditions at XXXXXXXXXXXXX: Ms. xxxxx emitted an order for a small repair of the dishwasher, a property that was just “remodeled”. When I arrived there, I saw a botched remodel; the GFCIs were removed in the kitchen and baths. The dishwasher drain and water supply improperly installed, running on top of the bottom shelve, making this cabinet area useless, waste water backing up to the unit and an extension cord with a removed ground has to be pull out of the sink cabinet to power the dishwasher. Exposed and damaged wiring for the hood. The exhaust vent disconnected and improperly venting and the disposal’s receptacle in unsafe condition. Visually and by experience (not a deep inspection) I think the water temperature from the Water Heater was less than 120 degrees (legionnaire possibility); not backflow prevention on hose bibs and toilets not meeting the CLs. I took photos and contacted Ms. xxxxx, but she brushed me off with some ridiculous and unprofessional answers. I keep contacting the tenant and she told me that no one was there to fix it and that she now has some flickering lights and she was afraid. After several days, I called again and she told me (she sounds intimidated) that a handyman were there and fixed (?).

Hazard conditions at XXXXXXXXXX: receptacles outlets are wear out not holding the plugs (loose-fitting plugs) causing arcing, tenants already lost a refrigerator, it need a profound investigation of the situation and receptacles replacement ASAP, but again Ms. xxxxx brushed me off as well with ridiculous and unprofessional answers, as “I called the tenants and they said that it is not happening again” – intimidation?

Those types of conditions on those properties are the cause of firers and deaths and I don’t want to carry that in my conscience, those tenants are low income but deserve the same treatment of the “privileged”.

It is my duty to take actions as I was the last professional licensed electrician and plumber there and I can be liable as knowing the hazards for those tenants and doing nothing.

Your ladies employees think that they are running “A Parlor Shop” and not a management company that must pay taxes and create safety environment for tenants. A loss of one live is too many. It is sad watching employees satisfying their own agenda and no the business that pays their salary.

I am attaching this letter and information/photos to the proper authorities. I throw the towel with your company but happy that we didn’t go ahead with more business.

I am invoicing you, per our agreement, for the 3 hours (travel time included) that I spent with Ms. xxxxx on the estimate in XXXXX and 1.5 hour with XXXXX situation and I am expecting the full amount of the invoices, including the taxes.

The ball is now in the court of the authorities, and I wish that nothing happens to those tenants.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXX

02/13/2017

 

[GoldDigger]

One of the principles of US tort law is that fault is more heavily found with the party who had the last chance to avoid the accident. If you see it and don't say anything, you are going to be sharing the hurt locker with others. If you see it and report it to someone in responsible authority (in this case could be the tenant, the owner, or the management company) then you have passed the potato.

Another principle of US tort law, as practiced, is that the slightest fault by someone with deep pockets (insurance) leads to 100% liability.

mobile

 

[Besoeker]

First, UK law is going to be different than US law.

I'm well aware of that and I would not suggest otherwise.
It might be pertinent to point out here that I was employed by a US corporation so maybe, just maybe...........

Second, what has a fork lift operator leaving a key in the ignition got to do with not reporting work done by someone else with their own tools?

It's an example of error by omission.

Let's say someone did get injured as a result of the poor work done in the OP's OT.

Who's fault would it be?

A) The person that did the work?

B) The person that owns the work?

C) The person that was using obviously bad electrical components, but got hurt anyway?

D) An electrician that looked at the work, noticed the bad work, and was not hired to fix it and has no other access to that work?

With respect, I think that misses the point.
I have not in any way suggested that the bad/unsafe workmanship was the fault of the electrician who observed it and took pictures of it. That would be nonsensical.

That he observed it and took the photographs and started this thread means that he KNOWS it was bad. I don't think that is in doubt.

The question is what he should do about it.

Again, what I am looking for is US precedence that involves an observer not hired to repair the work being charged with the injury of a person not under their control.

Leaving labels off work you performed is not the same.

Leaving keys in a fork lift you were driving is not the same.

I have taken many safety courses over the decades, and not one has mentioned danger of liability for not reporting poor work done by someone not under their control. I can't tell you how many times I have walked past light posts in the city with missing hand hole covers and visible wire nut connections. If someone stuck their hand in there and got poked, do you really think that everyone that noticed the hand hole cover missing would be liable for the injury?

Maybe in the UK, but not here. Of course, that may explain why I have seen so many of them over the years.......

It was a bit more than noticing things. They have been documented. Puts a slightly different slant on it.
If the electrician does nothing, maybe nothing will happen and someone will remain at risk. Would you do that? Would you be comfortable doing that?

 

[K8MHZ]

I have seen much worse than the photos dozens and dozens of times. I know inspectors that have seen worse inspecting our service upgrades and couldn't do anything about it because they were only on site do do a specific inspection, our upgrades, and no more. The only exception is in the case of imminent danger of a nature so severe it would require the immediate disconnection of the drop to the structure.

If I had to write a letter like the above every time I saw a box hanging out of a wall or a cord on something that should be otherwise, my arm would go numb. In addition to that, if the owner or manager doesn't want to fix it, there is nothing we can do. In some areas there are rental rules that rental property owners have to follow, but that is above and beyond what regular property owners have to do. And, if the rules do say the owner has to fix broken electrical stuff in order to rent out the property, the tenant might just find themselves without a place to live.

I just came back from shopping and noticed a cover off an receptacle box accessible to the public. It was one of a pair and neither one had in use covers on them. Should I go tell the electrical inspector? All he would have to do is look out his window with a pair of binoculars to see them.

Years ago I noticed a PVC service drop to a 400-600 amp service to a store had been hit by a snow plow and busted open, exposing the conductors inside. The repair was to take white plumbing PVC, cut it in half, and sandwich the broken PVC conduit, held together with hose clamps.

Across the street was the office of the electrical inspector. I dropped in and told him about it. He said he knew about it, but what was he supposed to do about it?

Now, I do notice the letter being sent also includes plumbing and health code violations. Was I supposed to rat out the owner of every bar and restaurant that had nasty plumbing? If so, that never happened.

Personally, I think sending the letter to all those listed will do nothing but make for some bad mojo. Hopefully I am wrong and the government will force the owner to fix everything listed at once, the owner will happily comply, the tenant will get all the stuff fixed and not have their rent raised because of it, and all will live happily forever after.

 

[ggunn]

Well, let's take a look at the precedents.

Has there ever been an observer of poor or possibly hazardous electrical workmanship charged and convicted with a crime for not reporting said workmanship to the owner, or the AHJ?

I would think that it would be more likely to show up in civil court as a suit for damages if someone got hurt or if equipment was damaged.

 

[K8MHZ]

I would think that it would be more likely to show up in civil court as a suit for damages if someone got hurt or if equipment was damaged.

Well, thinking that way is fine. I am asking about real world happenings. I have been twisting wire nuts for three decades, have been on hundreds of jobs with way worse work than the OP, and have never heard about such a suit.

Like I mentioned, I have seen much worse and just did my job and called it a day and I know many others and inspectors that have done the same. As a rule, I will point out something that the owner may not be aware of, but stuff like visible boxes hanging out and cords having to be plugged in is surely noticed by the owner, so what is the point?

 

[ggunn]

Well, thinking that way is fine. I am asking about real world happenings. I have been twisting wire nuts for three decades, have been on hundreds of jobs with way worse work than the OP, and have never heard about such a suit.

FWIW, under the PE Code of Conduct in Texas it would be an ethics rules infraction for me not to report a situation I see which is dangerous to life and/or property.

 

[__dan]

I've been on a lot of jobs with bad work and bad drawings. Usually I would see it in advance and try to get changes that never come through.

When it fails or gets caught a year or two later, they always forget that you told them it was wrong, and they're coming to you with blame saying this must be your fault you must pay. That's the time you need to be able to say "please refer to my email dated 1/13/06 when I said that work was shoddy and did not meet code".

When there's a claim, it will be the guy with no lawyer or the cheapest lawyer who gets stuck with the bill. If you have to write your defensive letter after the fact, certainly it weighs a lot less than the copy of the letter written immediately in an attempt to mitigate damages.

A contractor (any professional) paid to be onsite has a duty to mitigate damages. If it's a plumbing problem and he has no plumbing license, I would say it's a good bet he could argue to the judge 'what do I know about plumbing, nothing'.

If it's an electrical problem and you're the only E licensed person nearby, the judge, prosecutor, opponent's attorney, asks you "did you observe and know of this problem" (yes), and what did you do about it (nothing), you are admitting your own guilt in front of the judge.

You have to factor into the equation that when the other's lawyer gets involved, they will all lie in an attempt to offload their exposure to wrongdoing onto you. If you're assuming they will base their claims and arguments on the truth, you will need to show a copy of that documentation, showing you saw the liability exposure and acted first to offload it onto the proper other party.

 

[__dan]

http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/CEO-pool-company-plead-guilty-in-Greenwich-boy-s-1336141.php

"The company also must identify 100 pools in the state -- not owned by their company -- that fail safety requirements and retrofit them over the next 10 years at their own expense."

 

[cloudibew]

I'm not a lawyer so it may be possible for his legality to be clear, how about his conscience... From what i understand remodels are suppose to have permits pulled and bring stuff upto code. So this is a scenario where their "cheap" electrician will cost more than a good one... Probably deserves a butt whoopin with a pipe bender to.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

FWIW, under the PE Code of Conduct in Texas it would be an ethics rules infraction for me not to report a situation I see which is dangerous to life and/or property.

But even if you report it, the inspection authority only has probably cause to get a warrant to inspect. They have no authority to demand entry to inspect without a warrant.

 

[kwired]

There is no way an electrician would be held liable for someone's lousy work just because he walked into the room.

If that is true then no engineer better come over to my house since I don't have a safety net around my trampoline.

FWIW, under the PE Code of Conduct in Texas it would be an ethics rules infraction for me not to report a situation I see which is dangerous to life and/or property.

Kind of makes it hard to go out when not "working" and not end up working doesn't it?

Seems like nearly every time I go out I will see something that maybe needs reported whether it be electrical or just someone without a safety net around a trampoline. I also see traffic violations quite frequently.

 

[Besoeker]

I would think that it would be more likely to show up in civil court as a suit for damages if someone got hurt or if equipment was damaged.

What if it resulted in a fatality?

 

[bkludecke]

I have a little to add to this. In the early '80s I did a service call at a house with a lot of electrical problems. I was hired by the tenant and found/repaired a loose connection in a kitchen receptacle. While there I notice extension cords all over the place and no smoke alarms. I advised the tenant of the hazards and told him to have his landlord contact me ASAP. Nothing happened until four months later when a failed light duty cord with multiple things plugged in, including a portable heater, failed and started a fire. The tenant's two sons aged 15 and 3 years old died in that fire. Eventually everyone was named in a lawsuit; me, the landlord, insurance companies.....

In those days liability insurance out here was hard to come by and, since I felt no fault on my part, I decided to leave my insurance company out of it and hire a attorney on my own. Long story short, the tenant finally dropped the case against me after I spent about $10K in attorney fees, depositions, etc.

Bottom line is that when a serious incident occurs EVERYONE is on the hook until they get themselves off the hook. I can't begin to describe how badly I felt about the horrible loss of those two boys and the pain and anguish suffered by the parents. My policy since then has been to notify the tenant, homeowner, and management company in writing every time I see conditions which might result in serious injury or death. Then it is up to them to either fix or ignore the problems. Usually the building owner hates that kind of notification but thing normally get addressed.

 

[ggunn]

What if it resulted in a fatality?

As we learned in the court cases of O.J. Simpson, the burden of proof is less rigorous for a civil judgement than it is for a criminal conviction. I would think that for a conviction to be handed down in a case of negligent homicide, just knowing about a hazard and failing to do anything about it would be hard to prosecute.

But IANAL and I hope to never need one. Again, that is.