If I had it to do over again...

[George Stolz]

I took a few pictures today. I took them first thing in the morning, so they may be a little dim to make out details, I apologize. Click on the thumbnails to enlarge.

I did not do this. When I first saw this, I was very impressed.


This is a 1/2" EMT run to a Emergency light. There is a 12-2 MC run leaving the light, running to an exit sign in a hard lid yet to be built. As is visible in the picture, I could not figure out how to get the distances/angles right on the diagonal leg of the run. I took my tape measure, took a best guess and ran with it.

I could not 90, as there's a big beam over this wall.


This is the first rack I've ever done. It didn't even look this good when I first completed these bends. Thankfully, the guy looking over my shoulder told me to fix it, and showed me how to check for doglegs. He could see it just by looking, I couldn't. He put the pipe on the floor and showed me the problem.

Originally, the farthest pipe was correct, the next one was an inch high at the bottom, the second two inches lower, etc. It was pretty bad. Edit to add: The reason the 1/2" is a foot closer to the camera on the rack, is because I had a lot of obstacles to miss on this side of the building. There was a girder in the way, and that's as close as the 1/2" could be to the 1" and 3/4" runs.

Those EMTs lead into the next room...

I did almost all the EMT in this ceiling, the box with the temp light excluded. I installed the 1" EMTs and the 4x11/16 box immediately to the right of the light. Would you have approached this box the same way?


Thanks for any and all pointers. Bear in mind, I stink at math.

 

[George Stolz]

A fifth picture (since we're allotted four):


Without railing too much on anybody (I helped with this, but wasn't overjoyed), a show of hands: How many have found this necessary, or do you believe this is never necessary?

Edit to add:

I'm putting all these up to be picked apart. Have a ball, really.

 

[mdshunk]

Whatever happened to the requirement that the raceway be complete before installation of conductors?

That last bending pic there to that square... I'd have probably just 90'd right out of the rack towards the box (level), then offset right near the box to meet the knockout. Just sorta depends on what your bend count was getting up to on that run. The way you have that kick presently, it's sorta holding that whole pipe out beyond the rack, so it seems.

 

[emahler]

md, depends on the rest of the run. can you afford to add the extra 45deg in bends?

 

[mdshunk]

md, depends on the rest of the run. can you afford to add the extra 45deg in bends?

I don't know. I can't see the rest of the run. I might have done it very similar to the way George did if I knew more about what the bend count was getting up to. I bend 30's most of the time for offsets, myself.

If the bend count was getting up there, I'd have bent that pipe in the rack 90* downwards and rolled it toward the box 45* (close to what George has), then bent a 45 to get it level into the box.

There's a few ways. I just don't like how his kick is holding the pipe out from the rack.

 

[iwire]

How many have found this necessary, or do you believe this is never necessary?

Beyond the fact this is an NEC violation [300.18(A)] it should never have to be done.

If it has to be done it suggests that to many bends are being installed.

Also this is a major PITA to deal with later.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I had the same thought as mdshunk "Whatever happened to the requirement that the raceway be complete before installation of conductors?"

I can't see any conduit supports, are they there?

It really helps to be good at math and geometry when it comes to bending pipe.

Looks good George.

 

[iwire]

I would have asked you to fix this as well.

Everyone has a different way of running pipe, once you start doing a lot of pulling your view of the best way to run pipe will change.

I prefer to enter and leave boxes in a way that allows pulling straight through.

I notice a definite lack of supports.

 

[big vic]

That 4-11/16 box by the temp kight only has the one conduit leaving it. Why wouldn't you have ran the 1" all the way to the wall. Could have eliminated the two 90's in the conduit leaving that box and the 90 entering that box

 

[George Stolz]

I would have asked you to fix this as well.

Okay. How would you fix this? I'm thinking I need to grab a geometry textbook and refresh my memory on some formulas. Or is there a simple rule to apply to come out looking right?

I notice a definite lack of supports.

Come to think of it, in this picture, I spaced that out. I was going to do what I did with the 1" that 90's up to the deck, and use a beam clamp and a mini for on the truss beside the box for support. The end of the day wiped that from my memory - I'll do that on Monday.

Beyond the fact this is an NEC violation [300.18(A)] it should never have to be done.

If it has to be done it suggests that to many bends are being installed.

Also this is a major PITA to deal with later.

Not too many bends in this case. One 90, 30 degree offset apiece, and the pipe on the right has a 30 kick. I don't know the reason this happened. I felt the same way about the PITA factor.

 

[George Stolz]

I'd have probably just 90'd right out of the rack towards the box (level), then offset right near the box to meet the knockout. Just sorta depends on what your bend count was getting up to on that run.

This morning, I'm having a hard time rememberring what the bend count was up to for any of the pipes. It also reminds me of a picture I forgot to take.

It also brings up another good point of discussion. I have been encouraged to use a kick instead of an offset whenever possible. I heard it's easier to pull (fewer bends), looks better (eye of the beholder). Do you only use a kick when you're out of bends?

The way you have that kick presently, it's sorta holding that whole pipe out beyond the rack, so it seems.

Maybe it's a bad angle for the picture. It kicks directly down 5.5", and 90's directly into the KO. I don't know exactly what you're saying by "Holding your pipe out from the rack."

 

[George Stolz]

I prefer to enter and leave boxes in a way that allows pulling straight through.

Can you elaborate?

A-----------------B------------------C

Do you have one guy feeding at box A, and pull from box C? What are your rules of thumb for determining when you're going to do that?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What are your rules of thumb for determining when you're going to do that?

Any time that we can. Then we will go back and pull loops on the conductors that we need for the box(es) that we pulled through.
Don

 

[big vic]

Okay. How would you fix this? I'm thinking I need to grab a geometry textbook and refresh my memory on some formulas. Or is there a simple rule to apply to come out looking right?

bend an offset or move the box to the left

 

[George Stolz]

Don, so do you always try to pull it, and if it's too hard a pull just stop and start over?

Big Vic, the left-to-right orientation is correct. That's an optical illusion due to camera angle. The problem is, the 45 in the wall is deeper than the KO on the box.

 

[noxx]

On your first pic there I would have brought a 90 straight down, with an offset to tuck into the wall. Also, as I'm sure you're aware, the vertical run is wildly out of plum.

If you have problems with the math, practice, practice, practice. There are few tools as essential to nice, clean, multi-conduit runs.

 

[noxx]

I did not do this. When I first saw this, I was very impressed.


Years ago I worked with an industrial electrician who daily installed runs like this one in 3/4 RMC. Since then, I've been subjected to many different varieties in craftsmanship, and theory, when it comes to running pipe, all of which serves to remind, man, I miss that guy.

 

[drg]

Georege its not about being a math whiz and understanding geometry , its about understanding basics and being consistent .

At this point I could only imagine that if you had to make 10 sections of pipe with 4" offsets going on a rack they would be all over the place and look horrible.

This would have nothing to do with your math ability but your basic skills.

Making the bends consistent and accurate is the key to good conduit work , the other part is mostly addition and subtraction and knowing to leave enough material to saw off later.

Don't underestimate the importance of being consistent in your bends and the way you make simple measurements .

Two pointers I will pass long , I use a magnetic level on my bender handle for every simple 90 and 30 offset bend I make ,
on bends I have in question I take a piece of scrap wire and hand bend the shape so there is a physical idea of what may or may not work .

Again basics and consistency is the key , plus this all takes time, don't expect to become a great conduit man in a few months and hope you don't have to be on a RMC job next week..........enjoy.

 

[mdshunk]

... don't expect to become a great conduit man in a few months and hope you don't have to be on a RMC job next week..........enjoy.

No, I believe he said next week was the job with all 4" Rob Roy.

 

[chevyx92]

This morning, I'm having a hard time rememberring what the bend count was up to for any of the pipes. It also reminds me of a picture I forgot to take.

It also brings up another good point of discussion. I have been encouraged to use a kick instead of an offset whenever possible. I heard it's easier to pull (fewer bends), looks better (eye of the beholder). Do you only use a kick when you're out of bends?


Maybe it's a bad angle for the picture. It kicks directly down 5.5", and 90's directly into the KO. I don't know exactly what you're saying by "Holding your pipe out from the rack."

If you're out of bends then thats it you're out. A kick is a bend, just how much of a bend depends on how much of a kick you use.