incoming power leg breaks

[justdoc]

It has been a while since I have been here or needed any help
I have a problem that maybe someone can enlighten me on
We have single phase 220 house voltage
The wring coming into not only our home but a couple of neighbors keeps pulling/breaking on the utility side
This causes the other leg to increase voltage up to about 189 to 190 volts and the be broken leg is down to about 79 volts
This has happened several times over the last couple of years
Last night I lost 4 TV's a new cook stove, my internet/wireless equipment and several light bulbs, and a fan for starters
I know there is equipment for lightening strikes, surge suppression and other types of power problems
Is there anything that can protect the appliances and electronics from burning hone when a house single phases
I have been to war with the utility companies and the insurance companies to no avail
Just looking to see if there is a way to keep this from happening to myself or my neighbors in the future

 

[fisherelectric]

Sounds like the utility has lost the neutral (not the "power legs"), causing the voltage to fluctuate on the two hot legs depending on what loads are connected to each leg. Not a good situation. The utility may take a claim, but don't expect much.

 

[__dan]

It has been a while since I have been here or needed any help
I have a problem that maybe someone can enlighten me on
We have single phase 220 house voltage
The wring coming into not only our home but a couple of neighbors keeps pulling/breaking on the utility side
This causes the other leg to increase voltage up to about 189 to 190 volts and the be broken leg is down to about 79 volts
This has happened several times over the last couple of years
Last night I lost 4 TV's a new cook stove, my internet/wireless equipment and several light bulbs, and a fan for starters
I know there is equipment for lightening strikes, surge suppression and other types of power problems
Is there anything that can protect the appliances and electronics from burning hone when a house single phases
I have been to war with the utility companies and the insurance companies to no avail
Just looking to see if there is a way to keep this from happening to myself or my neighbors in the future

High voltage on one leg. low on the other is a broken neutral.

Hire an electrician to fix or diagnose it, then you will know if the problem was on the customer or utility side and who is liable.

You will not be able to collect until where the problem is found is known.

 

[justdoc]

incoming power lost

incoming power lost

Dan and fisherelectric
My apology you both are correct
memory does not serve me well anymore not sure what I was thinking when I made that remark
It is the neutral and has done this several times
It is not always in the same place
A splice pulled loose at one point only affecting me and took out a couple of items a tv and a Ac unit
A few months ago it broke back up the line and got my neighbor and I both again taking out items of theirs and ours
Another time it broke between the neighbor and I and only she had the problem
Last night it broke and affected only me taking out all the items stated
I am past the point of fighting them or the insurance company and just looking to see if there is any solution
In the event the neutral breaks again
The utility company always comes out goes up in the bucket and yep here is the problem
All of the utility companies phone, water, electric, gas have a disclaimer that by using their product any damage past he meter is or their connection point is not their problem
So again is there a product that will save electronics if the neutral is lost
I already have Rather expensive surge/voltage protection and it never slowed it down

 

[Little Bill]

I highly doubt a surge suppressor would stop the voltage from a broken/lost neutral.
I would go back to the utility on this. Here they will allow you to file a claim unless it's a broken tree limb or act of nature. If there line and/or splice failed then it's their fault and should take care of the damages.
You might have to go above the head of whoever you've been talking to at the POCO.
Not sure what it's called but I think something along the lines of "utility commission" at the state level.

Of course you would have to prove the problem was the POCO's fault or get the lineman to state it was their line/connection that failed.

Again, it can't be things like:
fallen tree
auto hitting pole
storm
or anything on customer/load side of connection

 

[growler]

The wring coming into not only our home but a couple of neighbors keeps pulling/breaking on the utility side .

Why do these cables keep pulling loose or breaking? Are there tree limbs falling on the line or even trees falling?

I would call the power company and ask to speak to the engineer that's responsible for your area. I have better luck with engineers than others and you can ask them what to do about the problem.

If the power company is at fault they should be paying for damages but if say they are your trees falling and knocking out power then your insurance would have cover it (I think).

 

[gar]

150531-2159 EDT

justdoc:

I have an idea for such a device, but I don't plan to develop it.

I have never had a neutral failure in my lifetime. But at my home we have 3 phase delta for the primary. Our secondary is single phase, although some in the neighborhood do have open delta on the secondary. Last year during a storm one primary phase was broken by a tree branch. This break was just beyond the back of my yard, but after my transformer. Arcing at the earth occurred. At this time I had small voltage fluctuations, possibly as high as 5 V because that arcing leg was one side of my transformer primary. Instead of cutting the wire near the break the power company, DTE, opened the line closer to the substation. Thus, all customers on our phase or the other phase that shared the broken line saw voltage fluctations from around 10 V to about 90 V on a nominal 120 outlet, both sides of the center tap. We had no neutral problem. I quickly pulled my main fuses. The customers on the third phase would have seen little fluctuation. I had no equipment failure from this. Whether neighbors had failures I don't know. Clearly motor thermal overloads were kicking in and out causing large load shifts.

My son had both a hot and neutral problem at his shop. Bad connections at the transformers. This is an open delta system. Probably a bad aluminum wire connection. When voltage fluctuated there was arcing at the transformer connections. At times when this occurred phase loss and some fuses blew at CNC machines. Also fans speeded up or slowed down. This was not a complete break as you described.

If a neutral problem occurs on you side of the meter, then that is your problem. But on the power company side you should be able make them responsible, or home owners insurance. What do your local lawyers say.

.

 

[justdoc]

LOst power coming in

LOst power coming in

Thanks guys for all the info
Believe me I have been up and down this road for 10 years and no one has ever been able to collect not even the neighbor with enough money to built is own private 9 hole golf course next to me
The power lines are on their easement which technically make the tress theirs as well even though on my property.
They do not ask for my permission to drive down it or walk down it or do any work or cut trees or drill anew hole and plant a pole
In this case it was a tree limb not breaking but whipping the lines back and froth till it pulled a splice into or so the repair guy says
He did cut the tree back without asking P
Please I appreciate all the what I need to do advice but that is not my question
Guys, I am not looking at how to collect or who to collect from
I am looking to a way to save my equipment and enlighten my neighbors as to what can be purchased if there is anything
So again " is there anyway to prevent or a piece of equipment that can be installed to keep appliances and electronics from being zapped when a neutral is lost going to a home "
I would appreciate any help with something

Gar, the truth they say "yeah good luck at getting your money ,it is not worth the cost and loss of time to try and recover they can stall and keep it tied up forever" It has been tried and as I stated earlier in 10 years I do not know one person that has collected form a utility company or from an insurance company

 

[PetrosA]

It won't be a cheap solution, but to save electronics I'd recommend investing in good UPS units. The good ones can handle both under and over voltage conditions and will protect your stuff. The downside is you could be looking at a lot of money to do this since it's probably out of the range of the cheap $75 units they sell at box stores.

 

[justdoc]

lost power comining in

lost power comining in

It won't be a cheap solution, but to save electronics I'd recommend investing in good UPS units. The good ones can handle both under and over voltage conditions and will protect your stuff. The downside is you could be looking at a lot of money to do this since it's probably out of the range of the cheap $75 units they sell at box stores.

T



PetrosA h
That is what they have on my internet service and it is melted did not save any of it

 

[mivey]

Of course you would have to prove the problem was the POCO's fault or get the lineman to state it was their line/connection that failed.

Again, it can't be things like:
fallen tree
auto hitting pole
storm
or anything on customer/load side of connection

Even if the line/connection failed the utility is not liable (at least in most places I'm familiar with). To be liable they would have to drop a live line on your equipment while working. To make them liable for equipment failure, you would have to prove something like gross negligence and that is a tall order.

 

[mivey]

Guys, I am not looking at how to collect or who to collect from

But you have lamented about it several times. But to be clear, the cost is yours to be taken up with your homeowner's insurance. Check your policy for coverage specifics - you might want to tighten it up. If you lived somewhere else maybe it would be different but that is the way it is in most places.

I am looking to a way to save my equipment and enlighten my neighbors as to what can be purchased if there is anything.

So again " is there anyway to prevent or a piece of equipment that can be installed to keep appliances and electronics from being zapped when a neutral is lost going to a home "
I would appreciate any help with something

For small equipment, a UPS that can handle up to 240 volt input. Probably cost prohibitive for the whole house.

For the whole house I can think of three things: A really big UPS, an overvoltage relay to trip a main breaker, an isolation transformer with a 240 volt primary.

 

[winnie]

There are various 'relays' which can sound alarms or trip shunt trip breakers in the event that voltages are out of allowed bounds. You have probably encountered these in your maintenance work.

In theory it should be possible to use something like a phase imbalance relay to detect loss of neutral, trip a breaker, and shut down sensitive equipment.

The only question is: will the price be low enough to be reasonable for home use? You would probably have to engage an electrician who does both residential and industrial work.

-Jon

 

[GoldDigger]

But you have lamented about it several times. But to be clear, the cost is yours to be taken up with your homeowner's insurance. Check your policy for coverage specifics - you might want to tighten it up. If you lived somewhere else maybe it would be different but that is the way it is in most places.

For small equipment, a UPS that can handle up to 240 volt input. Probably cost prohibitive for the whole house.

For the whole house I can think of three things: A really big UPS, an overvoltage relay to trip a main breaker, an isolation transformer with a 240 volt primary.

Depending on the speed of the neutral failure, the degree of load imbalance at that moment and the detector response time you could use a relay to detect voltage to ground on the neutral or imbalance between the L2-N and L2-N voltages to trip a main disconnect.
It may not be fast enough to prevent damage to electronics, but it will at least protect light bulbs.

 

[mivey]

Depending on the speed of the neutral failure, the degree of load imbalance at that moment and the detector response time you could use a relay to detect voltage to ground on the neutral or imbalance between the L2-N and L2-N voltages to trip a main disconnect.
It may not be fast enough to prevent damage to electronics, but it will at least protect light bulbs.

I didn't think about the response time. I guess you would have to trip in 0.06 cycles to be inside the CBEMA curve for 200% voltage. Perhaps in conjunction with UPS and/or surge protector would help dampen the overvoltage for long enough. I'll leave that up to someone else to look up.

Perhaps an isolation transformer is the way to go.

 

[justdoc]

lost power

lost power

But you have lamented about it several times.
But to be clear, the cost is yours to be taken up with your homeowner's insurance. Check your policy for coverage specifics - you might want to tighten it up. If you lived somewhere else maybe it would be different but that is the way it is in most places.
For small equipment, a UPS that can handle up to 240 volt input. Probably cost prohibitive for the whole house.
For the whole house I can think of three things: A really big UPS, an overvoltage relay to trip a main breaker, an isolation transformer with a 240 volt primary.

Mivey
Not sure why you say I have lamented on it several times .I made one post about it period
I keep commenting on it as people just like you have keep pulling it into the discussion even after I had mentioned that is not the issue several times
Even you are commenting on the insurance angle .
if you read my last post where I stated that is not the question you bring up insurance again
I do not mean this as harsh or rude but you comment on me lamenting on an issue and then you bring it backup after me saying that is not the problem or the question of who will pay
Maybe you just did a run down thru the post and did not read each post
I take what you and others are saying it is probably to cost prohibitive to do something

 

[mivey]

I have been to war with the utility companies and the insurance companies to no avail

I am past the point of fighting them or the insurance company and just looking to see if there is any solution
...
any damage past he meter is or their connection point is not their problem

Believe me I have been up and down this road for 10 years and no one has ever been able to collect
...
Gar, the truth they say "yeah good luck at getting your money ,it is not worth the cost and loss of time to try and recover they can stall and keep it tied up forever" It has been tried and as I stated earlier in 10 years I do not know one person that has collected form a utility company or from an insurance company

Mivey
Not sure why you say I have lamented on it several times .I made one post about it period
I keep commenting on it as people just like you have keep pulling it into the discussion even after I had mentioned that is not the issue several times
Even you are commenting on the insurance angle .
if you read my last post where I stated that is not the question you bring up insurance again
I do not mean this as harsh or rude but you comment on me lamenting on an issue and then you bring it backup after me saying that is not the problem or the question of who will pay
Maybe you just did a run down thru the post and did not read each post

I linked the comments in the posts above together. If that was not how you meant someone to take it then my apologies.

I take what you and others are saying it is probably too cost prohibitive to do something

For an active system at delivery point, probably.

If it were me, I would attack the reason for the ultimate equipment failure. It could be environment, maintenance, equipment, policies, customers, etc. Whatever the underlying cause, there is no way I would live with this occurring repeatedly over a period of ten years, even if I had to diagnose the problem and bring my own resources to bear. But I am a utility expert and can handle these things: technically, administratively, and politically. Sometimes to do this takes a hands-on approach to deal with the dynamics.

Dealing with local staff or even boards or commissions can take a certain amount of finesse. Often times they are more receptive to an expert on such matters. The problem is that it does not appear you have the expertise to handle it. You need to get an expert on the scene. If you do not have inside access or utility expert friends, then you are going to find getting an expert can be expensive.

What would be great is if one of our resident experts here that was close to your location could intervene. Where are you located?

Squeaky wheels don't always get oiled but those that squeak with resonance do.

 

[mivey]

I take what you and others are saying it is probably to cost prohibitive to do something

For an active system at delivery point, probably.

I'm thinking you could fix this for under $15k per house.

But what is cost prohibitive to you? $10k, $5k, $1k, $500, $100? You can buy equipment or you can spend an equivalent amount in time and resources. How much are we talking about in losses? In insurance deductibles?

Amort the fix cost against periodic losses and see what route you want to go.

 

[mjf]

How about some preventative maintenance. Sounds like the equipment you require is a chainsaw.....cutting down the trees in the easement might help decrease the chances of this happening again.

 

[justdoc]

close post

close post

Moderator
You can close this post
I appreciate the few suggestions
At the same time for what it is worth
I did not come on here to be beat about the head and shoulders and be told how stupid or that I have no expertise
I can remember a few years back when this site was always helpful and never saw anyone put down or beat on
You are right I do not have the ability to go out and trouble shoot every little piece of the utility companies wiring
If it was a matter of simple trees and could be safely removed then yes, I would cut them
When it is out in an open area or it is at the transformer then I can't control that
I apologized for making the wrong statement of power and not the neutral
When you are slapped with the gift of Agent Orange and your world stops turning
Because of the leukemia, the kidney failure, the heart problems, the tumors in your throat
from all the medications you have to take then things do not always stay as sharp as they did
I thought I could come to an old forum and would be welcome back with a handshake I see that was not what happened
Mr. Mivey you seem to be wanting to get me in a position to argue with you so you can show how intelligent you are
I concede you are a far more talented person than I so you win
I continued to lament even after you mentioned it and I do not have enough sense to even talk to you much less anyone with more intelligence that both of us
I bid you a good day sir and leave you to now degrade someone else or continue to tell them things they do not need to hear
To the rst of You I thank you for your patience and your suggestions and answers