Inspector requiring kitchen counters (and cabinets) to be installed.

[480sparky]

Try post #1,where the head inspector is reported to have even quoted a section....

Heck of a stretch, if you ask me.

(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located on or above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There are also building code issues that may come into effect here- I am not certain

 

[iwire]

Try post #1,where the head inspector is reported to have even quoted a section....

I have read post 1, I have even quoted it. I don't agree that it says what gadfly is saying.

I see the head inspector mentioning a code section that is in violation AND the cabinets have to be installed before the final.

When pressed the head electrical inspector stated the we were violation of "NEC 2011- 210.52 (A) -(C) 5" and that "Cabinets and counters will need to be installed."

Not that the NEC requires cabinets for inspection which is what gadfly has said.

 

[GoldDigger]

I have read post 1, I have even quoted it. I don't agree that it says what gadfly is saying.

I see the head inspector mentioning a code section that is in violation AND the cabinets have to be installed before the final.




Not that the NEC requires cabinets for inspection which is what gadfly has said.

Definitely worth clarifying, given that the OP seems to convinced that hid receptacles are compliant with the cabinet plan but that the inspector is unwilling to even try to verify that unless the countertops are in place.
Perhaps (?) a more accurate paraphrase would have been that the installation was not in compliance because (not and) the cabinets had to be installed.
Note that there would be (if the point came up) no way of verifying what would in fact be readily accessible under the final configuration.

 

[ActionDave]

Definitely worth clarifying, given that the OP seems to convinced that hid receptacles are compliant with the cabinet plan but that the inspector is unwilling to even try to verify that unless the countertops are in place.
Perhaps (?) a more accurate paraphrase would have been that the installation was not in compliance because (not and) the cabinets had to be installed.
Note that there would be (if the point came up) no way of verifying what would in fact be readily accessible under the final configuration.

I am intrigued by the irony of the solution.....
"Nope. No counter tops, no final. Something might change."

But put in some blatantly obvious fake counter tops, problem solved.

"Nothing to worry about now. Where's your permit so I can sign it."

 

[iwire]

It is beyond my ability to comprehend why people feel they can tell an area how to do inspections. :huh:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

How would the inspector know if the receptacles are installed to meet code without the cabinets in place. I think he may have a valid point. This is not a dwelling if their is no permanent area for cooking

 

[north star]

= = & = =


IMO, ...if the project is not completely finished, then the AHJ DOES have
justification, "IF" they have adopted & actually use an edition of the IRC.

From the `12 IRC, Section R109.1.6 - Final inspection: "Final inspection
shall be made after the permitted work is complete and prior to occupancy."



IMO, ...it is the responsibility of the EC to contact the AHJ for
inspections and any issues that arise.

From the `12 IRC, Section R109.3 Inspection requests: "It shall be
the duty of the permit holder or their agent to notify the building official
that such work is ready for inspection..........It shall be the duty of the
person requesting any inspections required by this code to provide access
to and means for inspection of such work."


= = & = =

 

[cowboyjwc]

Went in to sign off final on a custom home. Full granite back splash and the outlets didn't lay out correctly so I wrote him a correction notice. He started hollering and asking how he was supposed to install receptacles in there now? And of course threw out the, well the inspector signed it off at rough. I asked him if the cabinets were there at rough and of course the answer was no. I also reminded him that I was not the inspector who signed off the rough, I also reminded him that if the cabinet layout on the floor didn't mirror the install then he was the one who had made the mistake and not our inspector.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Went in to sign off final on a custom home. Full granite back splash and the outlets didn't lay out correctly so I wrote him a correction notice. He started hollering and asking how he was supposed to install receptacles in there now? And of course threw out the, well the inspector signed it off at rough. I asked him if the cabinets were there at rough and of course the answer was no. I also reminded him that I was not the inspector who signed off the rough, I also reminded him that if the cabinet layout on the floor didn't mirror the install then he was the one who had made the mistake and not our inspector.

That was exactly my point in my post above. I can't tell you how many times in the past they redesign the kitchen after we have left and don't bother to tell us. This does not happen much anymore but it used to be a real issue

 

[kwired]

I am intrigued by the irony of the solution.....
"Nope. No counter tops, no final. Something might change."

But put in some blatantly obvious fake counter tops, problem solved.

"Nothing to worry about now. Where's your permit so I can sign it."

Exactly, if the fact that something may later change is the reasoning why he will not pass the inspection, then apparently there is no chance of anything changing if you put in some obviously temporary countertops:roll:

 

[MasterTheNEC]

You need to go back to post #19 and answer point for point. Up to now, you haven't quoted a bit of code. I'd be calling DCA on you right about now...

@gadfly56,

I don't need to confuse the situation with code. The call is by the Electrical Inspector and he wants to see a finished product before he/she gives the final inspection. I also think many people are thinking the "CODE" or the NEC in our case HAS to say something on this..it does not.

In most states that have a "uniformed building code" which is the law of the land for that specific state and it supersedes anything the NEC would have to say. Also remember the first statement on the inside cover of the NEC/ " "The NFPA has no power, nor does it undertake, to police or enforce compliance with the contents of NFPA Documents." or how about this statement at the very beginning of the NEC " This CODE is purely advisory as far as NFPA is concerned."

I believe as iWire has stated, the local jurisdiction is making a call (wrong or right) they are the court, jury, and judge on this situation. The building codes (and sometimes even local amendments) determine specific things for a final inspection and the ability to maintain sanitation and so on is required. The local AHJ has made the call, the head electrical inspector supports his/her call.....the way I see it, put in the countertops (granite or plywood) and get the inspection and move on. If it is simply an issue of " I want to get the final so I can get paid, its not my house" then well.....get paid first maybe?

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Exactly, if the fact that something may later change is the reasoning why he will not pass the inspection, then apparently there is no chance of anything changing if you put in some obviously temporary countertops:roll:

Do you think the Inspector really cares about this person (which they again probably really careless about)...they care about their perceived liability at NO countertops being their and making a final inspection. We all know people change things after we leave the job....but for inspectors they want to put their signature on a finished product and when they leave...they leave. It is not my concern you have plywood counters, heck thats a design thing but at least you have counters and a perceived finished product for me to inspect.

As an inspector I (not anymore but when I was) I would never sign off on a set of cabinets in a kitchen with no counter on it (my AHJ would not allow it either) and we would simply state on the ticket " inspection not ready" next inspection...

 

[kwired]

@gadfly56,

I don't need to confuse the situation with code. The call is by the Electrical Inspector and he wants to see a finished product before he/she gives the final inspection. I also think many people are thinking the "CODE" or the NEC in our case HAS to say something on this..it does not.

In most states that have a "uniformed building code" which is the law of the land for that specific state and it supersedes anything the NEC would have to say. Also remember the first statement on the inside cover of the NEC/ " "The NFPA has no power, nor does it undertake, to police or enforce compliance with the contents of NFPA Documents." or how about this statement at the very beginning of the NEC " This CODE is purely advisory as far as NFPA is concerned."

I believe as iWire has stated, the local jurisdiction is making a call (wrong or right) they are the court, jury, and judge on this situation. The building codes (and sometimes even local amendments) determine specific things for a final inspection and the ability to maintain sanitation and so on is required. The local AHJ has made the call, the head electrical inspector supports his/her call.....the way I see it, put in the countertops (granite or plywood) and get the inspection and move on. If it is simply an issue of " I want to get the final so I can get paid, its not my house" then well.....get paid first maybe?

That is fine - if other building code officials are also requiring countertops to be in place before a final approval.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

That is fine - if other building code officials are also requiring countertops to be in place before a final approval.

They don't have too (but most probably do in a given region). Each municipal has their own AHJ and they set the rules for their specific jurisdiction.

 

[iwire]

That is fine - if other building code officials are also requiring countertops to be in place before a final approval.

Kwired, can you help me out.

Why do you think you get to decide how any area conducts inspections?

Not trying to bust your chops, I just really for the life of me can't understand it.

Do you have a say in how each area enforces parking restrictions or zoning laws as well? :huh:

To me it makes absolute sense that an area could have a policy of requiring the work to be complete before getting a final.

 

[ActionDave]

Do you think the Inspector really cares about this person (which they again probably really careless about)...they care about their perceived liability at NO countertops being their and making a final inspection. We all know people change things after we leave the job....but for inspectors they want to put their signature on a finished product and when they leave...they leave. It is not my concern you have plywood counters, heck thats a design thing but at least you have counters and a perceived finished product for me to inspect.

As an inspector I (not anymore but when I was) I would never sign off on a set of cabinets in a kitchen with no counter on it (my AHJ would not allow it either) and we would simply state on the ticket " inspection not ready" next inspection...

So you agree with me somewhat at least, yes?

 

[kwired]

Kwired, can you help me out.

Why do you think you get to decide how any area conducts inspections?

Not trying to bust your chops, I just really for the life of me can't understand it.

Do you have a say in how each area enforces parking restrictions or zoning laws as well? :huh:

To me it makes absolute sense that an area could have a policy of requiring the work to be complete before getting a final.

I didn't know I had that kind of power.

Work being complete before a final makes good sense. Now we need some kind of reference to what that actually means.

Others have suggested make shift countertops. Doesn't seem like that is necessarily a completed job either. If there is no definition of what a completed job actually is then why can't OP say what he has is finished, and they do not plan to install counters? If you are in a area that has plan submittal and approval of those plans before work begins, it is understandable the finished product should match the plans. This has never been verified by OP if that is how it works at his location.

If we don't make it clear what completed actually means, we open the door to debate about it.

 

[ASG]

If nothing is installed, is it enough of a kitchen to be certain that the receptacles, if they are just wall space receptacles and not for counters, should not have AFCI protection?

 

[david]

Building departments have to verify light fixtures for energy compliance, finish grade, even the contrast in color for the numbers you install on the building identifying the address.

In short it is finished at the point that the building department can determine compliance and release an occupancy permit.