insulated ground for swimming pools

[FionaZuppa]

I no longer understand what you are getting at.

680.25 does not apply to all equipment near water.

what would be the case where a body of water is not a pool, spa, hot-tub, massage-bathtub, or fountain (aka "water feature")? doesnt this cover just about everything that may be water? and, once you bring electric near those items then 680 usually has some say-so, or at least has the definitions needed to determine if 680 has say-so. but from what i can see, if its electric for anything related to the water feature (motor, lights, motorized pool cover, water heater, etc) then the wiring (outside) should have insulated egc and all should be in appropriate raceway.

trying to find out a way to not use insulated egc, or if UF can be used is not-fruitful. just make it all insulated egc and dont use UF, simple.

 

[Johnnybob]

Correct. The motors require an insulated grounding wire from the disco to the tub, and since you're gonna have to use raceway anyway, might as well pull 3-4 appropriate sized wires and forget the UF. Most tubs the motor cant be wired separately anyway.

I seem to recall a thread, not that long ago, where the advice was to use UF cable. Might be mistaken, though. Memory not what it once was ('70's & '80's were rough)!

 

[iwire]

what would be the case where a body of water is not a pool, spa, hot-tub, massage-bathtub, or fountain (aka "water feature")? doesnt this cover just about everything that may be water? and, once you bring electric near those items then 680 usually has some say-so, or at least has the definitions needed to determine if 680 has say-so. but from what i can see, if its electric for anything related to the water feature (motor, lights, motorized pool cover, water heater, etc) then the wiring (outside) should have insulated egc and all should be in appropriate raceway.

You keep trying to say all items coverd by 680 require insulated EGCs.

That is false.

Lets say we want to wire a Hydromassage Bathtub, that is a item covered in article 680. What code section in 680 requires a insulated EGC to this unit?



Now lets say we want to install an indoor Spa or Hot Tub. What code section in 680 requires a insulated EGC to either of these units?


Lets wire a fountain, What code section in 680 requires a insulated EGC to this fountain?

trying to find out a way to not use insulated egc, or if UF can be used is not-fruitful. just make it all insulated egc and dont use UF, simple.

For a POOL, there is no way to use UF for the pump and other related equipment.

 

[FionaZuppa]

i did make note of "outside" wiring, no?

and sure, some fountains are under 422

Part V—Fountains. Parts I and II apply to permanently installed fountains. If they have water in common with a
pool, Part II also applies. Self-contained, portable fountains are covered by Article 422, Parts II and III.

so a non-movable stone fountain, covered by 680, small do-hicky fountain from HD, 422.
semantics at best here.

 

[kwired]

what would be the case where a body of water is not a pool, spa, hot-tub, massage-bathtub, or fountain (aka "water feature")? doesnt this cover just about everything that may be water? and, once you bring electric near those items then 680 usually has some say-so, or at least has the definitions needed to determine if 680 has say-so. but from what i can see, if its electric for anything related to the water feature (motor, lights, motorized pool cover, water heater, etc) then the wiring (outside) should have insulated egc and all should be in appropriate raceway.

trying to find out a way to not use insulated egc, or if UF can be used is not-fruitful. just make it all insulated egc and dont use UF, simple.

See the following:

Article 680 Swimming Pools, Fountains, and Similar Installations

I. General

680.1 Scope.
The provisions of this article apply to the construction and installation of electrical wiring for, and equipment in or adjacent to, all swimming, wading, therapeutic, and decorative pools; fountains; hot tubs; spas; and hydromassage bathtubs, whether permanently installed or storable, and to metallic auxiliary equipment, such as pumps, filters, and similar equipment. The term body of water used throughout Part I applies to all bodies of water covered in this scope unless otherwise amended.

Article 682 Natural and Artificially Made Bodies of Water


I. General


682.1 Scope.
This article applies to the installation of electrical wiring for, and equipment in and adjacent to, natural or artificially made bodies of water not covered by other articles in this Code, such as but not limited to aeration ponds, fish farm ponds, storm retention basins, treatment ponds, irrigation (channels) facilities.

As mentioned not all items require insulated EGC but certain specific items do.

There is also art 553 and 555 for floating buildings and marinas and boatyards that also involve bodies of water.

[h=1][/h]

 

[iwire]

i did make note of "outside" wiring, no?

and sure, some fountains are under 422



so a non-movable stone fountain, covered by 680, small do-hicky fountain from HD, 422.
semantics at best here.

I will ask again, what specific code section in article 680 requires an insulated ground to an indoor hot tub?

 

[JFletcher]

I will ask again, what specific code section in article 680 requires an insulated ground to an indoor hot tub?

680.43 - Indoor Installations

"A spa or hot tub installed indoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article except as modified by this section..."

Part II of Article 680: Permanently Installed Pools

680.21 Motors

(A):

"Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper grounding conductor..."

but 680.21(A)(4) permits an uninsulated ground in a single family dwelling

2008 NEC referenced

 

[FionaZuppa]

ok, i was only discussing the wiring that is outside related to "water features" that are called out in title of 680.

indoor items, buildings on water, etc etc, are not really in the context of what we were talking about.

most small "portable" fountains have a corded pump, thus to wire that you need a receptacle, and if its out in the backyard its either UF or conduit with a egc. in conduit i would pull insulated egc regardless of conduit type, how many would pull bare egc?

for me, if its outside and 680 has something to say about it, i would use insulated egc for all the wiring (outside).

 

[mbrooke]

I guess, my question in all this is... if an EGC is at ground potential, why it need be insulated at all?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I guess, my question in all this is... if an EGC is at ground potential, why it need be insulated at all?

It is insulated o protect the conductor from any corrosive environment taht it may be passing thru or into

 

[mbrooke]

It is insulated o protect the conductor from any corrosive environment taht it may be passing thru or into

Makes sense. But covered UF... its rated for water but I guess not corrosives?

 

[FionaZuppa]

Makes sense. But covered UF... its rated for water but I guess not corrosives?

UF egc is technically not "insulated". insulated egc also help to protect against leakage from CCC's onto the egc. say for some reason egc lifts and there is a short to egc from a CCC, and then pool boy leans on something that is bonded and something that is egc, ..... zap.... likely not to happen, possible yes. not all bonding loops hook back up to egc, etc (but is why i think they should). maybe if there were UF with insulated egc NEC would allow it, but requires a change to 680.

 

[kwired]

UF egc is technically not "insulated". insulated egc also help to protect against leakage from CCC's onto the egc. say for some reason egc lifts and there is a short to egc from a CCC, and then pool boy leans on something that is bonded and something that is egc, ..... zap.... likely not to happen, possible yes. not all bonding loops hook back up to egc, etc (but is why i think they should). maybe if there were UF with insulated egc NEC would allow it, but requires a change to 680.

I have to think if you had a UF cable with an insulated EGC, nothing in NEC needs changed for it to be suitable for applications that require an insulated EGC. Can't say I have ever seen insulate EGC in UF but sure it is possible if one wanted to special order it, and probably would have to be in large enough quantity they will be willing to make it.

I don't know the specific reasons to require insulated EGC in places that do require it or if they happened to not consider UF with bare EGC when making those rules. Only way to really know is to maybe look at past (may have to go back a ways) proposals and ROP's to see what was mentioned when the rules were first put in place.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I have to think if you had a UF cable with an insulated EGC, nothing in NEC needs changed for it to be suitable for applications that require an insulated EGC. Can't say I have ever seen insulate EGC in UF but sure it is possible if one wanted to special order it, and probably would have to be in large enough quantity they will be willing to make it.

I don't know the specific reasons to require insulated EGC in places that do require it or if they happened to not consider UF with bare EGC when making those rules. Only way to really know is to maybe look at past (may have to go back a ways) proposals and ROP's to see what was mentioned when the rules were first put in place.

well, would need to modify 680, no?, to include UF as an accepted wiring method? or would 680 as-is allow it if the UF egc was insulated?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

In most cases uf will not be able because of the fear of damage to the cable, imo

 

[kwired]

well, would need to modify 680, no?, to include UF as an accepted wiring method? or would 680 as-is allow it if the UF egc was insulated?

As is should be acceptable if the conductor is insulated - goes back to art 100 and definitions of conductor, insulated vs conductor, covered.

The section(s) in question don't mention a cable type they mention "insulated conductor" or "covered conductor". A bare conductor within a cable jacket does not meet the insulated definition but is covered- until you get to portions where you removed cable sheath at terminations, then it very well can be bare at that point which is also defined in art 100.

 

[FionaZuppa]

As is should be acceptable if the conductor is insulated - goes back to art 100 and definitions of conductor, insulated vs conductor, covered.

The section(s) in question don't mention a cable type they mention "insulated conductor" or "covered conductor". A bare conductor within a cable jacket does not meet the insulated definition but is covered- until you get to portions where you removed cable sheath at terminations, then it very well can be bare at that point which is also defined in art 100.

its all conduit, no? 680 doesnt even allow UF in conduit.

 

[mbrooke]

UF egc is technically not "insulated". insulated egc also help to protect against leakage from CCC's onto the egc. say for some reason egc lifts and there is a short to egc from a CCC, and then pool boy leans on something that is bonded and something that is egc, ..... zap.... likely not to happen, possible yes. not all bonding loops hook back up to egc, etc (but is why i think they should). maybe if there were UF with insulated egc NEC would allow it, but requires a change to 680.

Makes sense in theory. Could actually be so.


Anyone know of an ROP that might shed light on any of this?