J-Box

[Esthy]

I always use, when needed, the existing subpanels/panels inside the house as J-box to bring the new circuits to the new main service panels. I never had problems and always passed inspections. But now an Electric Inspector told me that this is not allow. Is he correct? and Why?

 

[raider1]

What code section did he cite?

Chris

 

[acrwc10]

What code section did he cite?

Chris

Translated> No he is not right. As long as your wires are from the same system and your panel fill does not exceed 40%, it should not be an issue.

 

[Esthy]

Here is the question I e-mail to the EI, I edited names:
Hi EI, Does the NEC allows increasing the conductors, size from the Sub-panel (we are planning to use it as a J-Box) to the new Main Service Panel to compensate for the adjustment and temperature factors?
As example: Using a conduit with 42 CCC on roof, 25' from Panel to Sub-panel, tapping the AWG 12s on the Sub-panel with AWG 8s to Main Panel and protecting with 20 AMPS breakers and tapping the AWG 14s with AWG 10s and protecting with 15 AMPS breakers. I don't find the NEC section dealing with this situation.
(The really question was, can increase the conductor in the raceway between the panels?)
His answer: First of all you can not use the old panel as a junction box. You need to use the appropriated sized listed junction box. Second 310.15 and 310.16 address derating of conductors, etc., etc.,
My really question was not answered.
BTW, this is a special situation in a wrongly renovated house I am dealing with and I didn't have this situation before.

 

[hbendillo]

I always use, when needed, the existing subpanels/panels inside the house as J-box to bring the new circuits to the new main service panels. I never had problems and always passed inspections. But now an Electric Inspector told me that this is not allow. Is he correct? and Why?

Please clarify for me. Are you routing a circuit from the main panel through sub-panels to a given load?

 

[raider1]

Does the NEC allows increasing the conductors, size from the Sub-panel (we are planning to use it as a J-Box) to the new Main Service Panel to compensate for the adjustment and temperature factors?

Yes, you are permitted to increase the conductor size to compensate for adjustment factors.

First of all you can not use the old panel as a junction box.

There is nothing in the NEC that prohibits you from using an old panel as a juntion box, or a new panel for that matter if adequate space is provided for the purpose (See 312.8)

Chris

 

[Esthy]

Thanks, To hbendillo: existing sub-panel is obsolete (FP), it is a 20 circuits and there are 24 circuits (double lugging). I will run the AC unit circuit directly to the main panel, then my plan is to use the existing sub as a J-box, tap the existing romex -12 & 14 there - with 8 & 10 THHN conductors and run them in conduit to the main. The situation doesn't allows me to install a new sub with new 4/conductors. Of course I will check again my calculation of sizes.

 

[Esthy]

I really need to solve this problem. The Electric Inspector inspector wrote back:

Louis,
No you can not use the old panel as a junction box. 110.3 Listed and Labeled for use. It is a panel. NOT A JUNCTION BOX!!!

This really bother me! I don't see anything wrong in using the old panels, but apparently he is right. He approved those for me in the past. We have many old houses here and this is an economic, easy and safe way to do.

Is anyway I can fight it back?

 

[ultramegabob]

I really need to solve this problem. The Electric Inspector inspector wrote back:

Louis,
No you can not use the old panel as a junction box. 110.3 Listed and Labeled for use. It is a panel. NOT A JUNCTION BOX!!!

This really bother me! I don't see anything wrong in using the old panels, but apparently he is right. He approved those for me in the past. We have many old houses here and this is an economic, easy and safe way to do.

Is anyway I can fight it back?

I thought a panel goes in an enclosure.

 

[DPDT]

Man, if that's the case, then the last 20 or so out of 100 service changes we've done are illegal. In these older homes it's the cat's meow to use the old panel as a JB. 14/2/2 and some 12/2/2 and your done with the old branch circuits. Only thing else we do is screw the old panel shut.

 

[hillbilly]

I really need to solve this problem. The Electric Inspector inspector wrote back:

Louis,
No you can not use the old panel as a junction box. 110.3 Listed and Labeled for use. It is a panel. NOT A JUNCTION BOX!!!

This really bother me! I don't see anything wrong in using the old panels, but apparently he is right. He approved those for me in the past. We have many old houses here and this is an economic, easy and safe way to do.

Is anyway I can fight it back?

I don't know of any requirement for junction boxes to be listed and labeled....Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Once the panel and other parts are removed, it is simply a metal box.

There are construction requirements for boxes of a specific sizes.
They are spelled out in 314.40.
If your box meets the requirements, I don't see how the inspector can refuse it.

Ask him how he can cite 110.3 when there is no requirement for listing and labeling of junction boxes.

I've done what you plan many times with no problem.
I always fasten the door (if it has one) so that it can't be opened.

Just my opinion
steve

 

[Buck Parrish]

I have also used it as a j-box with the guts removed. You say he approved it before.
You shouldn't have asked him any thing. I know you we're asking about the derating issues. Next time ask this forum first. :smile: Get the facts.
I just used a bunch of gutters that had the UL sticker on them.

 

[M. D.]

perhaps he has not read the whole section:-?

312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be
used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for
conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches
or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose
is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring
space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors,
splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross
section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area
of that space.

This question has been asked several time to a whole bunch of code experts this is one example.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_quandaries_8/

Q. Can I make a splice within a panel?


A. Yes. Sec. 373-8 states you shall not use enclosures for overcurrent devices as junction boxes or raceways?unless you provide adequate space. Conductors inside a panelboard shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40%, and splices and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75%.

 

[benaround]

Good one, MD !!!!!

 

[infinity]

So leave the guts in the old panel and don't go over the 40% or 75% fill. Tell the inspector to read 312.8. Sounds completely stupid I know.

 

[benaround]

Will he let you install a relay in a j-box ?

 

[Esthy]

Okay, I am back now with an answer from yesterday meeting regarding this thread. I am a member associated of IAEI and attend the monthly meetings. EI - BTW I highly his opinion, he's IAEI instructor - told me flat out that the old panels cannot be use as a Junction boxes and see UL White book QCIT. That we and many of the forum are misinterpreting 312.8, it doesn't stated "empty enclosures" (sorry for my idiomatic expression, you know English is my second language). Here in this area, he can approve a old panel as a J-box if it is recessed in old plaster, masonry or in any area that he will consider will cause a "big mess", but not in wallboard, etc., BUT the old cover cannot be used, even if it is screwed shut. I will need a new "Listed" cover and will not pass inspection with the old cover.
The other contractors in the meeting questioned this position. I really would like opinions from EI. I think most of us used, using and will use those panels as J-boxes. If there anything we can do? Maybe a proposal for 2011?

 

[chris kennedy]

Hello Louis,

Often our guys screw the cover shut. Often we have covers made at the local metal shop. As per:

314.41 Covers.
Metal covers shall be of the same material as the box or conduit body with which they are used, or they shall be lined with firmly attached insulating material that is not less than 0.79 mm ( in.) thick, or they shall be listed for the purpose. Metal covers shall be the same thickness as the boxes or conduit body for which they are used, or they shall be listed for the purpose. Covers of porcelain or other approved insulating materials shall be permitted if of such form and thickness as to afford the required protection and strength.

A few legal choices.

 

[Esthy]

Hi Chris, thanks for your response. Yes, we can fabricate a cover. But my problem is not the cover. My problem is that, according with NEC and UL, the old panels are not allow as J-boxes. Here the EI "can" allow them in certain situations. He refuse to approve old panels as j-boxes and I think this is wrong, not the EI, but NEC or UL. This is a thing that we should be able to do by NEC and UL standards. I am really frustrated about it. Here and in many parts of the country there are innumerable situations like that. According to the forum's, most of them use the old panels as J-boxes and MAYBE someone can propose it for 2011.
Sorry, I won't talk about this anymore.

 

[chris kennedy]

Sorry, I won't talk about this anymore.

Relax Louis, its Friday.

Peace brother.