Large radius conduit bending

[ohmhead]

50% of all doctors, lawyers, accountants and pilots are below average. does that mean that somehow it is unsafe to use their services?

do i really need a brain surgeon to give me a basic physical? or a $500/hour lawyer to write a 3 paragraph will?

Well i think thats what he is saying if you do average electrical work then no just slam in. But if you do above average work then you must do a better job some times its that extra effort on a job to get your next job its called reputation in your local or state or states , contractors know and when that next project comes along your company gets it even with a high bid , we agree with your statement commercial work is lower spec average work .Best to ya take care

 

[ohm]

Of the 86 people that I had on the job, only 9 besides myself were already employed by the contractor that was awarded the job. Everyone else was hired. And of the 76 that were hired I believe that less than 20 still work for us. I probably had hired an additional 20 or 30 people that were terminated or quit for various reasons...some because of "lack of production", "absenteeism", "failure to exhibit skills necessary for the job", because of violating company policy (drugs), or they just left town. It is not like I had a huge stockpile of people at my disposal. We had to hire people as we needed them.

When I said I had 86 people on the job, that was at the "peak" of the job. We started job with just a few people, ramped up to 86 and then reduced as the job was finishing. But on a job like that you still need to recognize indivdual skill levels and use them to your advantage. You manipulate your people like a chess game.

I've been on large jobs (300 electricians for over a year) where I stood beside the client and listened to him comment how everything except the sprinkler system looked good. All the same contractors would be invited back for the next expansion, except the sprinkler guys who didn't understand plumb & square.

 

[ohmhead]

Well Ohm thats how our company started in a garage 50 years ago and now were number 23 in the usa its all that extra little bit of effort and neat work and lots of free hours doing more than one would do . dont push the rope pull it it flows better someone said that once ? take care OHM

 

[ohm]

Well Ohm thats how our company started in a garage 50 years ago and now were number 23 in the usa its all that extra little bit of effort and neat work and lots of free hours doing more than one would do . take care OHM

Sometimes it's hard to convince someone running conduit that the quality of his work may determine the quantity of his retirement. Keep up the good work!

 

[Rockyd]

Please explain to me how concentric bends and lining up couplings adds any value to the customer at all?

All it does is let the electricians stroke their own egos at the customers expense.

I have to respectfully disagree. it matters when your running 1"to 4" Ocal in big racks. Price of an expansion joint can be upwards of $400. Not saying every joint needs to line up, all the time everyday, but money is saved in having pipe joints line up on big straight aways. Measure twice, cut once, takes on a whole new meaning.

Not saying it's an everyday occurance, but would be embarrassed if I couldn't get a big rack going, and guarantee it would be pretty in an efficient manner. Guess it all depends on who your early day instructors were.

For the original poster. Know thy bender. String is your friend. 1.57 is your best friend. Keep that no dog close Don' want no howlers out there!

 

[ohm]

I have to respectfully disagree. it matters when your running 1"to 4" Ocal in big racks. Price of an expansion joint can be upwards of $400. Not saying every joint needs to line up, all the time everyday, but money is saved in having pipe joints line up on big straight aways. Measure twice, cut once, takes on a whole new meaning.

Not saying it's an everyday occurance, but would be embarrassed if I couldn't get a big rack going, and guarantee it would be pretty in an efficient manner. Guess it all depends on who your early day instructors were.

For the original poster. Know thy bender. String is your friend. 1.57 is your best friend. Keep that no dog close Don' want no howlers out there!

Granted sloppy or pretty will probably work just the same. But pretty work will be seen by managers to floor sweepers and if enough floor sweepers praise your work and compare it to the sloppy work your competitors do...the people who decide who will do the next project will IMHO have no choice but pick you.

 

[iwire]

I have to respectfully disagree. it matters when your running 1"to 4" Ocal in big racks. Price of an expansion joint can be upwards of $400. Not saying every joint needs to line up, all the time everyday, but money is saved in having pipe joints line up on big straight aways. Measure twice, cut once, takes on a whole new meaning.

I will have to agree there, there are times where lining up the joints makes things go faster. I should have picked a better example.

 

[peter d]

I will have to agree there, there are times where lining up the joints makes things go faster. I should have picked a better example.

FWIW, I had run of the mill EMT installations in view here. Obviously bending RMC around a tank or PVC coated RMC would require concentric bending. Again a case of talking about apples and oranges.

 

[Rockyd]

Thanks to both of you.

It's Sunday, and yup, got to roll on a job.

 

[ohmhead]

Well you said it if all your couplings line up from the start then they will line up down that rack when you offset or change direction it can be done at the bender with one measurement instead of 20 different measurements these guys never have done bigg pipe work ? Added double racks & trays above and below also most jobs we do all couplings and connectors if use in lue of rigid will be painted in color of voltage or system control looks nice when easy to be seen by plant engineer or a electrical engineer during a inspection all conduits must be number by the number system on that conduit card to identify its route and location to and from. Electrical Engineer walks pipe runs to check each conduit card sign it off , they look at our work everyday its hard to explain why we do it but we build our racks before we run our conduit it must be run and installed per space exactly by engineered drawns and route location in the plant along with buss duck trays one on top of the other . Its a special job not one for a doctor or a lawyer sorry just had to add that best to yas

 

[ohm]

Well you said it if all your couplings line up from the start then they will line up down that rack when you offset or change direction it can be done at the bender with one measurement instead of 20 different measurements these guys never have done bigg pipe work ? Added double racks & trays above and below also most jobs we do all couplings and connectors if use in lue of rigid will be painted in color of voltage or system control looks nice when easy to be seen by plant engineer or a electrical engineer during a inspection all conduits must be number by the number system on that conduit card to identify its route and location to and from. Electrical Engineer walks pipe runs to check each conduit card sign it off , they look at our work everyday its hard to explain why we do it but we build our racks before we run our conduit it must be run and installed per space exactly by engineered drawns and route location in the plant along with buss duck trays one on top of the other . Its a special job not one for a doctor or a lawyer sorry just had to add that best to yas

All my big jobs were done in 3D cad long before the job went to the field (we used to do a plastic model, accurate to 1/8"). The model was sent to the field before work started and workers were in and out of the model room all day long taking measurements. If a craft deviates from the plan and installs his stuff where piping should be etc. it gets redone, at his expense. Same for sloppy work. We used to laugh at the saying "it's amazing what we could do with $500M".

 

[Red Wiggler]

50% of all doctors, lawyers, accountants and pilots are below average. does that mean that somehow it is unsafe to use their services?

do i really need a brain surgeon to give me a basic physical? or a $500/hour lawyer to write a 3 paragraph will?

Some of you guys are missing the point. No I don't need a brain surgeon to do a basic physical, but if I needed brain surgery, I would expect that brain surgeon to do his job the best that he can, and not just do an "adequate" job meeting the "minimum" standards.

I am not saying that I am the best at what I do, (God knows I am far from the best) its just that I strive to do my best. And if my best work allows me to exhibit quality, and professionalism, then that's what I intend to do.

Everyone is looking at this situation from the electricians point of view when it comes to doing work for the customer. But if you look at it from the customer's point of view I feel that we would want more than adequate work meeting the minimum standards and codes.

 

[ohmhead]

Well we pre plan 2 or 3 months and have sit down with other trades cad overlays mechanical & electrical on top of that big lite up overlay table look at overlays redesign it once or ten times eat lots of donuts during this and lots of coffee then put on cad and print drawns for the field which i use to install the work i also help plan the route during the design work and work with electrical engineer team & our cad people to make it happen . So its a long process before we start running pipe then the engineer adds more conduits and we go back to square one. But we like the chance to be under stress and high blood pressure each day. And the best part is when they ask me if we can do it . comments ?

 

[ohm]

Well we pre plan 2 or 3 months and have sit down with other trades cad overlays mechanical & electrical on top of that big lite up overlay table look at overlays redesign it once or ten times eat lots of donuts during this and lots of coffee then put on cad and print drawns for the field which i use to install the work i also help plan the route during the design work and work with electrical engineer team & our cad people to make it happen . So its a long process before we start running pipe then the engineer adds more conduits and we go back to square one. But we like the chance to be under stress and high blood pressure each day. And the best part is when they ask me if we can do it . comments ?

With the plastic model we would all crowd around and move a plastic man (scaled) to see if he would bump into anything or verify he could operate valves etc.

When we went to 3D CAD the client would do a flyover, chose a door and start walking around. Each dept. would virtually operate their respective equipment, changing anything they didn't like long before construction was started. We would also do a failure analysis of all the design. Relays, computers, valves, etc. had to fail in the safe mode.

One goverment job had so much paperwork it required an 18 wheeler to deliver it to the job. Then the job was canceled by an incoming president.

 

[ramsy]

When MC is opted for over EMT

Durable design: Aluminum jacket MC or Flex, w/Aluminum 2-hole straps for outdoor elements.
Perhaps : Liquidtight w/carlon 2-hole straps

Ugly design: Strut & straps corrode after a few months.
Perhaps : Stainless hardware, but that's expensive.

 

[lbwireman]

Is everyone comfortable when a doctor tells you that he has done "an adequate job" when treating you for some illness? What about an airline pilot...do we accept the fact that he does the only the "minimum" when he controls an airplane. What about lawyers, accountants, or any professional that we rely on with our lives and our money? Are we satisfied with just the minimum or adequate work?

These people are considered professional, and I consider myself a professional. Why not take pride in our work? Is it the fact that we cannot take pride in what we do directly related to only economic factors...or is it because people doing the electric work don't care about quality, and only care about the quantity of money they make?

There have been people posting pictures on this web site of the horrible installations that they have run across. Is that the type work what we want our trade to be represented by? Why can't we elevate ourselves to a higher standard? Don't costomers rely on our professionalism? Maybe I am assuming that everyone considers themselves professionals.

Why do we line up our couplings and make concentric bends when necessary? It is because we are proud of what we sell. We try and represent the trade as professionals. It is not any harder to do a job with skill and professionalism, then it is to through it in, and collect a check. I just sleep better at night knowing that I have done my best to maintain the quality of the trade that has been good to me for 30+ years.

Full agreement from our shop. I recently heard the old axiom "Practice makes perfect" amended to "Perfect practice makes perfect". I agree with that as well. In the long run, the overall cost of lining up couplings and making concentric bends does not add that much to the cost of doing the job. IF you know the math as differentiated from having to do the math. I know of more than a few times when a compliment from an inspector in front of an owner or owner's rep has resulted in referral business later. If it were all about squeezin' that last nickel, there'd be no Rolls Royce dealerships, would there? Course a little salesmanship doesn't hurt either...:grin:

 

[jaylectricity]

Wow, this discussion really hits home for me. I know it has been somewhat of a threadjack talking about quality and such as opposed to the actual question posed.

I would prefer to work for customers who want to pay me to do a great job and be able to take the time to make it as pretty as possible. As was mentioned in this thread, pipe looks ugly to most customers anyway. But I'd prefer them to know that I did the best I could to keep it pretty. I don't really worry about that in some of the commercial jobs I do.

Despite my desires I will dumb down a job if the customer doesn't want to pay for the custom work. On some occasions I have done the job better than minimum even though I was getting paid for minimum just for my own peace of mind. Sometimes it was just because I had nothing better to do.

If not for the NFL conference championships I could probably type for an hour on this subject.

So thank the NFL that I did not!

 

[RHJohnson]

Every single job's level of quality gets adjusted up or down for what the budget will allow.
I was always taught to do my best. When you bid a job do you give 3 bids - good - better - best? I expect the same quality work from whomever got the bid.

"That does not mean I am against doing high quality work. Far from it actually. I'm simply saying you cannot apply the "every job must be done with the highest level of quality and workmanship" every single time.
I think a lot of this thread is because we do not know for certain what you (or Mark, or some others) consider acceptable or quality work. But we all know poor workmanship when we see it.

As Marc said, the customer should get the "good, better and best" options and be allowed to choose the one that suits him best.
For materials this is what I would do.

Money is always easy to spend when it's not your own, isn't it?
I don't know - never spent anyone else's money. My wife spends mine.

As for concentric bends, I don't care if you have the best conduit man in the world - making a concentric bend versus a one-shot when a one shot will do takes more time. More time = more cost.
I have worked jobs where the client had his own inspectors going around all day long. They had several meeting a day with the construction manager and would voice complaints. Saw several electricians lose jobs because the client did not like their work.
Mom and Pop HO do not have the knowledge and will accept almost anything from the electrician telling them what a good job he did - when you and I both may scream 'TRUNK SLAMMER"

Who pays for that? Either the contractor eats it, or the contractor has figured it into his bid, in which case the customer is paying for something that will add no value to his building but sure looks pretty.
I feel better if I do quality, even if I end up paying for some of it because of my error. I like to make money just like everyone else, but I do not feel I have to make the maximum on every job. I've even had one of my son's complain to me because of this. He thought I should cut some slack on the quality because I didn't charge enough. I won the argument - if for no other reason than I was the boss.
Pretty does add value. Why else would you fix your home or other property to sell it.

 

[iwire]

Pretty does add value. Why else would you fix your home or other property to sell it.

Not the same thing at all.

To be clear my view in this thread has not been against doing 'pretty work'.

If the customer wants and pays for pretty work I am all for it and enjoy doing it.

If the customer beats us down on the pricing then they get what they get.

You can't get a steak for the price of a hotdog and no EC should be giving anything away for free.

 

[RHJohnson]

Not the same thing at all.

To be clear my view in this thread has not been against doing 'pretty work'.
Ans. I don't like "pretty work" either - I only used it in response to it's derogatory use in a prior comment. Quality is my preference.

If the customer wants and pays for pretty work I am all for it and enjoy doing it.
Ans. Quality?

If the customer beats us down on the pricing then they get what they get.
Ans. Did he use a bat and cause bodily injury.

You can't get a steak for the price of a hotdog and no EC should be giving anything away for free.

Ans. I agree

If price is of utmost importance to me and I beat you down from your "best price" to your "better price" to your "good price" I'd have the hair standing up on the back of my neck. Probably thank you and then hire a trunk slammer.

The HO and business people do not know the difference between quality and medicore work. They think they know what they need, but in actuality they know what they want. Their pockets are usually not very deep.

Most small EC's (1 man shop to maybe the EC and 3 employees) have very low overhead. They can offer high quality at lower costs. Reading in this forum they wish to charge what the big companies charge, but they do not have the same expenses. You don't need to do that when you are small, and especially if you have no intentions of growing to a large organization. That is the only advantage you have over the big guys. You can offer quality for less than they can charge at their bottom price. Even when they need work now when times are a little tough and they are cutting costs.