Max number of recepts per circuit

[don_resqcapt19]

Scott,
Why are you turing it off for an hour???a second will meet the code rule. :twisted:
Don

 

[colosparker]

I can only imagine that Dave is quick to cite the "neat and workmanlike" section of the NEC that even the NFPA admits is vague and possibly unenforceable.

Definition is up to whoever is doing the inspection. Oy yeah, that's right, an inspector isn't afforded an opinion on an installation (according to this forum).

 

[colosparker]

Dave do you ever wonder why no one has agreed with you here?

I'm learning. I now know an inspector/AHJ can't interpret a code. I found out the NEC is all "permissive" (for the definition of "permissive" please refer to Mike Holt's Code Forum). An individual code is a "law", rather than a minimum standard (we no longer have code violaters, we have law breaking electricians). You can put all of the (aforementioned) receptacles on one circuit in a dwelling in Seattle (and this will "comprise" a good installation). You can put up to 10,000 receptacles in a 600 sq. ft. area in a dwelling in some states (North Carolina Home of Nascar).


These are just the highlights :lol:

Dave

 

[jwelectric]

I can only imagine that Dave is quick to cite the "neat and workmanlike" section of the NEC that even the NFPA admits is vague and possibly unenforceable.

Definition is up to whoever is doing the inspection. Oy yeah, that's right, an inspector isn't afforded an opinion on an installation (according to this forum).

This is an easy one to answer.

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.
Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.

FPN: Accepted industry practices are described in ANSI/NECA 1-2000, Standard Practices for Good Workmanship in Electrical Contracting, and other ANSI-approved installation standards.

(A) Unused Openings.
(B) Subsurface Enclosures.
(C) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.

If you don't have the Standard booklet then follow the three guide lines as outlined in 110.12

As long as those 10,000 receptacles comply with the code what else would be required?

I think that I will install them alternating the ground up and ground down. I might also alternate between white, ivory and brown and mix and match the cover plates. A brown plate on a white device and so on and so on.

Would you have a problem with this?

 

[colosparker]

Dave,

I would like to hear your defenition of "workmanship" if you don't mind.

Show me a bad installation and I will define "workmanship" for you. Show an electrical inspector/AHJ a bad installation and they will define it for you.


Now lets hear you definition benaround???

 

[colosparker]

As long as those 10,000 receptacles comply with the code what else would be required?

Still haven't answered the question, Mike

 

[jwelectric]

As long as those 10,000 receptacles comply with the code what else would be required?

Still haven't answered the question, Mike

What question?

 

[colosparker]

I've tried to say this before, but I will try one more time, in another way. Article 220.14(J) is within Article 220, "Branch Circuit, Feeder, and Service Calculations." It tells you how to calculate. It does not tell you how to design a branch circuit (or a feeder or a service).

Umm, okay. So how do I calculate that general lighting load branch circuit in a dwelling with all of the aforementioned receptacles on that one circuit??? :lol:

 

[jwelectric]

I went back a few pages and reread the post that you made. The only question that you have ask that I haven?t addressed could be answered like this.

I have an 1800 square foot house with three bedrooms with 3- 15 amp general purpose circuits.
1800 x 3 = 5400, 5400/120= 45, 45/15= 3 circuits

I install some the lights on one circuit and the living room on one circuit.
Then I install all the rest of the house on the third circuit including but not limited to the following: the receptacles, lighting fixtures and smoke alarms for all three bedrooms.

Do you see anything wrong with this installation and if so please state the section of the NEC that is in violation.

 

[jwelectric]

I've tried to say this before, but I will try one more time, in another way. Article 220.14(J) is within Article 220, "Branch Circuit, Feeder, and Service Calculations." It tells you how to calculate. It does not tell you how to design a branch circuit (or a feeder or a service).

Umm, okay. So how do I calculate that general lighting load branch circuit in a dwelling with all of the aforementioned receptacles on that one circuit??? :lol:

(J) Dwelling Occupancies. In one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2), and (J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12. No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.
(1) All general-use receptacle outlets of 20-ampere rating or less, including receptacles connected to the circuits in 210.11(C)(3)
(2) The receptacle outlets specified in 210.52(E) and (G)
(3) The lighting outlets specified in 210.70(A) and (B)

Based on the above I would say that it is done at the rate of three watts per square foot not by the number of receptacles or lighting outlets.
How say you?

 

[roger]

I've tried to say this before, but I will try one more time, in another way. Article 220.14(J) is within Article 220, "Branch Circuit, Feeder, and Service Calculations." It tells you how to calculate. It does not tell you how to design a branch circuit (or a feeder or a service).

Umm, okay. So how do I calculate that general lighting load branch circuit in a dwelling with all of the aforementioned receptacles on that one circuit??? :lol:

You really need to take some classes, the amount of receptacles on any general lighting circuit will not increase the load or calculation.

Just because you have 10,000 (or more) receptacles available, do you think they are all going to be used? Walk around most any house and count the number of unused receptacles, then take a recording meter and log the loads on a number of house hold circuits for say a year and note the peak, you notice very few will be loaded very heavy except for times when there may be a heater or A/C used, and when this occurs you will notice there are still unused receptacles on the circuit.

BTW, do you think cheap extension cords are better than hard wired receptacles?

Apply some common sense to your floundering argument and you can see the NEC recognizes that by regulating these circuits to x amount of receptacles they are increasing the possibility that average home owner will use dangerous methods to get power where they may want or need it.



Roger

 

[colosparker]

Colosparker, we in other states have also figured out how to quote more than one person in a single post. :lol:

Yes, I agree! I haven't got the quote thing down yet. Perhaps when I attain the 2000-4000 postings of some of the more experienced Code wizards, I will finally get it down. :lol:

Did you miss the post were I agreed I was wrong about the whole number of receptacles thing?? For the record, I now agree that you can put up to 10,000 receptacles in a 600 square foot area in a dwelling (but that is only on a 15 amp breaker).


Of course I was right when I said there is a limit. But nobody in here gives me credit for that determination!

BTW, perhaps you can help. Can I put all of the general use receptacles in a hotel, motel guest room, or guest suite on one circuit. Or am I limited by the up to 10,000 rule??? :lol:

 

[colosparker]

[You really need to take some classes, the amount of receptacles on any general lighting circuit will not increase the load or calculation.




Apply some common sense to your floundering argument and you can see the NEC recognizes that by regulating these circuits to x amount of receptacles they are increasing the possibility that average home owner will use dangerous methods to get power where they may want or need it.



Roger

 

[jwelectric]

Could I put all of the general purpose outlets (receptacles and lighting) in this house on one circuit?

 

[colosparker]

You really need to take some classes, the amount of receptacles on any general lighting circuit will not increase the load or calculation.

Oops, I did it again, Sorry Roger!. I promise by post 2000 I will have the whole quote thing down! :lol:


You need a class or two, and quit relying on the opinions of a "code forum". That's all they are opinions. Mine included. Nothing on here matters when it comes to an actual electrical installation in the real world! We can banter around all we want, but the bottom line is an electrical inspector/AHJ woking in his/her jurisdiction under the laws given them can/will excercise their right to approve an installation. I challenge you or anyone on here to dispute that fact.

I also challenge you to answer the question I have asked of you, based on the statement that you made in this post.

Dave

 

[dlhoule]

We are allowed but not limited to 10,000 duplex receptacles on one 15 amp circuit in each dwelling unit in our county as long as we stay with-in 600 square feet with the circuit.

That's just what I figured. So what do you people in Michigan do with all those plugs?

I dunno. I've never seen it done, but it would be legal.

 

[roger]

Sorry Dave, but if you will read all of my posts (even in the archives) you will see that I do not rely on the forum for my views.

I do think you are progressing in your education though,

an electrical inspector/AHJ woking in his/her jurisdiction under the laws given them can

you have learned that they must have laws to enforce, not just their wants and wishes. :wink:

Now,

I also challenge you to answer the question I have asked of you, based on the statement that you made in this post.

can you please post the question directly so I can answer it.

If you are refereing to this

So how do I calculate that general lighting load branch circuit in a dwelling with all of the aforementioned receptacles on that one circuit???

220.12 Lighting Load for Specified Occupancies

A unit load of not less than that specified in Table 220.12 for occupancies specified therein shall constitute the minimum lighting load. The floor area for each floor shall be calculated from the outside dimensions of the building, dwelling unit, or other area involved. For dwelling units, the calculated floor area shall not include open porches, garages, or unused or unfinished spaces not adaptable for future use.

This would be 3va per sq ft and the number of receptacles have no bearing on any thing after that.

220.14(J)
(J) Dwelling Occupancies In one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2), and (J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations of 220.12(1) A. No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets.

(1) All general-use receptacle outlets of 20-ampere rating or less, including receptacles connected to the circuits in 210.11(C)(3)

(2) The receptacle outlets specified in 210.52(E) and (G)

(3) The lighting outlets specified in 210.70(A) and (B)

Roger

 

[colosparker]

I have an 1800 square foot house with three bedrooms with 3- 15 amp general purpose circuits.

Mike, That wasn't the question.

 

[colosparker]

Sorry Dave, but if you will read all of my posts (even in the archives) you will see that I do not rely on the forum for my views.

I'm not going to bother with your archived opinions. :shock:


You missed the point of the question, Roger. Can I put all of the aforementioned general-use receptacles in the dwelling, hotel, motel guest rooms and guest suites on one circuit?? :lol:

And please don't bother to cite 220.14(J). I have read it enough already :lol:

 

[colosparker]

Could I put all of the general purpose outlets (receptacles and lighting) in this house on one circuit?