mobile home & ground rods

[iwire]

The point is this it has been arqued that a feeder is not normanly relied on to provide a path from a structure to a grounding elecrode sytem

I agree.

Does the term feeder assembly incorporate allowence spacic to mobile and manufactured homes that feeders in other articles normally would not have.

In my opinion it does, but in no place does it go far enough to forget about section 250.32.

The second point is the scoping provision in atrticle 550 seem to give more muscle to article 550 then the general requirements in other sections of the code

I don't think any of us have said 550 does not modify chapters 1-4 at all, I think what we have been saying is that 550 does not have language in it strong enough to say that 250.32 is out of the picture for the mobile home.

 

[david]

If that what this is about then I agree 100% with you. :thumbsup:

There are many things that are unique to mobile homes
Lets face it how many other structures can you plug in the feeder as a source o supply

 

[david]

I don't think any of us have said 550 does not modify chapters 1-4 at all, I think what we have been saying is that 550 does not have language in it strong enough to say that 250.32 is out of the picture for the mobile home.

I understand your position I am not confused about what it is.
You do not believe a reference to 250.32 (B) instead of a reference To 250.32 is clear enough to say that 250.32 (A) where ground rods are mandated is strong enough language to exclude them from the requirements in 550.33

We just do not agree i would like to see the language stronger myself
but are conclusions are different

In your favor most all other structures would support your conclusion

How ever the industry seems to favor my conclusion CMP has to have noticed the industry take . And if it has been wrong I cant see CMP setting back and doing nothing to the language to clarify the issue. Allowing it to go on for years and years and doing nothing about it

 

[david]

I understand your position I am not confused about what it is.
You do not believe a reference to 250.32 (B) instead of a reference To 250.32 is clear enough to say that 250.32 (A) where ground rods are mandated is strong enough language to exclude them from the requirements in 550.33

We just do not agree i would like to see the language stronger myself
but are conclusions are different

In your favor most all other structures would support your conclusion

How ever the industry seems to favor my conclusion CMP has to have noticed the industry take . And if it has been wrong I cant see CMP setting back and doing nothing to the language to clarify the issue. Allowing it to go on for years and years and doing nothing about it

And before you say it, I am aware that the panel itself just doesn?t make a change to the language, How ever an informational note or influence a comment in the NEC Handbook may be with in there grasp

 

[iwire]

There are many things that are unique to mobile homes
Lets face it how many other structures can you plug in the feeder as a source o supply

That is spelled out directly and clearly in 550.

And when we look at Article 400 it tells us that other places in the code may change the rules.

400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for
the following:

(10) Where specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code

 

[iwire]

I understand your position I am not confused about what it is.
You do not believe a reference to 250.32 (B) instead of a reference To 250.32 is clear enough to say that 250.32 (A) where ground rods are mandated is strong enough language to exclude them from the requirements in 550.33

We just do not agree i would like to see the language stronger myself
but are conclusions are different

In your favor most all other structures would support your conclusion

How ever the industry seems to favor my conclusion CMP has to have noticed the industry take . And if it has been wrong I cant see CMP setting back and doing nothing to the language to clarify the issue. Allowing it to go on for years and years and doing nothing about it

In my personal opinion the standard practice you are used to is keeping you from looking at this objectively. I think you are trying to make the code fit what you expect it to say. The code does not say what you want it to say or perhaps even what it should say.

 

[david]

That is spelled out directly and clearly in 550.

And when we look at Article 400 it tells us that other places in the code may change the rules.

I agree with that, and i understand your point

Now if you could do me a favor if you will. Do you know off the top of your head in all other structures where the grounding electrode conductor is mandated. Is the main disconnecting means also mandated to be suitable for service equipment.

 

[david]

In my personal opinion the standard practice you are used to is keeping you from looking at this objectively. I think you are trying to make the code fit what you expect it to say. The code does not say what you want it to say or perhaps even what it should say.

I do not do much installation any more at all. I inspect the work of others. I re-inspect what others have already inspected and approved in the past. And I see a lot of manufacture instructions.

I assure I have changed my position on more then one a few times

I am certainly not stuck in the mud if you will

 

[david]

There seems to be a tone here every time someone disagrees that they are to rigged not willing to learn or stuck in old habits, just cannot connect the dots clearly.

Do you really think that is fair, take this issue being discussed for example. Do you think there are men even those who have published code reference material that would disagree with your position.

 

[iwire]

There seems to be a tone here every time someone disagrees that they are to rigged not willing to learn or stuck in old habits, just cannot connect the dots clearly.

I think it is human nature and certainly my many experiences with separate structures and little experience with mobile homes affects my own views as well.

Do you think there are men even those who have published code reference material that would disagree with your position.

Yes, of course.

 

[PaulAbernathy]

Smart in your quote of Mark Cloutier which wasn't a post Mark made in the other forum, but a quote posted by Paul Abernathy in the other forum, who also went on to post his opinion which in post 31 on that site he made an exceptional post as to why the opinion of electrodes being required goes wrong and the fact that many at NFPA also feel they are not needed, and the same reason why as I have pointed out, as they would serve no purpose, this also has another side that if someone were to ever challenged this in a court of law I'm sure you know that as a requirement of law it would be shot down as soon at it was determine that a rod at the trailer would have no usefulness and laws can not just be made because someone thought it was a good idea.

If I remember right Paul is a member here, maybe he will chime in?

I will agree that the NEC is very muddy on this and will leave it at that.

Hello All,

I posted on another site in a response to a question that I have been looking at a long time. I concede that it is muddy even if the purists would like to cite Section 250.32 as the holy grail of answers. The NFPA was contacted on this and an informal response was given. However, a response was also given in a publication by Mr. Sargent of the NFPA in which he disagree's and says that as long as the mobile home is being used as an occupancy then it is compliant and no additional GES is required at the mobile home. I won't go into why the sides differ and I wont go into why some wish to challenge the concept when only a few posts back admitted to doing an installation that they knew was not code compliant in order to save a customer money but I won't get into that.

In this specific application, if the service equipment is located within 30' of the mobile structure and installed properly with a GES established at this service disconnect/equipment location their is no benefit in adding an additional at this mobile trailer. Debate it, Live it, Love it....happens to be my opinion no less than every "informal" opinion given at the NFPA or within the NFPA Handbook.

If you wish to read my responses to the concept please feel free to visit the other site for details...Enjoy your board everyone.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It just doesn't make sense that the cmp member would say that esp. with 250.32 in the scenario. How can one see a home as a structure but not a mobile home. And for that matter what difference does it make. If the cmp sees no need for a mobile home to have a ground rod then why require it on a home when the service is on a pole. It doesn't make sense.

The purpose of the rod is for voltage spikes and lightning so why would the effects be any different in a mobile home then in a standard home.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Paul are you saying that no GES is needed in a trailer? Water pipes don't need bonding etc.?

 

[david]

It is my understanding that there is no mandate that the distribution panel in a mobile home when being supplied by a feeder to be suitable for service equipment.

I am looking at other structures that the grounding electrode is mandated and checking to see if the disconnect for the feeder is mandated to be suitable for service equipment.

I also understand that by design choice most manufacture homes have distribution panels that are suitable for service disconnects.
Just looking for the difference in what is mandated

 

[jwelectric]

I can’t help but wonder about 550.11 concerning the disconnecting means and branch-circuit protective equipment.

Nowhere in this section does it require the disconnect to comply with 225.36. Is there a reason for this? When I look at UL QUEY it is very clear that all panel boards are not required to be rated as service equipment. How many in mobile homes are rated as service equipment?

I again wonder if it is required to install an electrode to a panel board that is not rated as service equipment. Is it possible that this is the reason why 550.33 doesn’t reference the entire section of 250.32 except for in the exception?

In 550.32 it clearly states that service equipment can’t be installed either in or on a mobile home which would lead me to believe that this is the reason why 550.11 does not require this distribution panel board to comply with 225.36.

Should one decide to install a rod at the mobile home where would he connect it? In 550.16 there is a requirement to bond the frame of the home to the distribution panel with a #8 conductor which would be to small for the rod if the feeders were larger than 2 copper or 1/0 aluminum and smaller than required in 250.66

What if the mobile home was wired from a power outlet? Would the rod be required? Are they required for RVs?

I have really enjoyed this thread so thanks to all on both sides of the discussion but it has caused me to have even more questions.
:?

 

[PaulAbernathy]

Paul are you saying that no GES is needed in a trailer? Water pipes don't need bonding etc.?

No, I am saying the GES is established via Section 550.16 in my opinion and this also would handle the bonding needs in regards to the water pipes and so on in your question. The reference to Section 250.32(B) in Section 550.16 is When the service equipment is being installed in or on the structure which in my opinion is no longer a mobile structure. To be honest with you Dennis, In speaking with some high up individuals in the NFPA I would have thought they would have cleared this up internally but it appears it is not. However, my opinions as they may are simply my opinions. We have other areas in the code where GE's are not required based on specific conditions and I personally feel this is one of those conditions. Could it be clearer....Yes but in either case in looking at this from a safety standpoint I don't see in this specific case where it is of a concern.

However, it is entirely acceptable to disagree with me. Again, I would approve either method in the jurisdiction to which I am located simply by calling the mobile home, which is a structure but not one to which was built on site (my reasoning mind you) and allow auxiliary electrodes at the mobile home if the installer chooses that design . I have to be honest dennis...I don't like posting here so for those who with to flame me, again opinions are like ****** and (I did the ***'s not the Mods...Relax) everyone has one.

Best wishes.....and Happy Coding !

 

[PaulAbernathy]

I can?t help but wonder about 550.11 concerning the disconnecting means and branch-circuit protective equipment.

Nowhere in this section does it require the disconnect to comply with 225.36. Is there a reason for this? When I look at UL QUEY it is very clear that all panel boards are not required to be rated as service equipment. How many in mobile homes are rated as service equipment?

I again wonder if it is required to install an electrode to a panel board that is not rated as service equipment. Is it possible that this is the reason why 550.33 doesn?t reference the entire section of 250.32 except for in the exception?

In 550.32 it clearly states that service equipment can?t be installed either in or on a mobile home which would lead me to believe that this is the reason why 550.11 does not require this distribution panel board to comply with 225.36.

Should one decide to install a rod at the mobile home where would he connect it? In 550.16 there is a requirement to bond the frame of the home to the distribution panel with a #8 conductor which would be to small for the rod if the feeders were larger than 2 copper or 1/0 aluminum and smaller than required in 250.66

What if the mobile home was wired from a power outlet? Would the rod be required? Are they required for RVs?

I have really enjoyed this thread so thanks to all on both sides of the discussion but it has caused me to have even more questions.
:?

lol......and you know exactly where to post the questions to get unbias answers right....?..lol

 

[Smart $]

It is my understanding that there is no mandate that the distribution panel in a mobile home when being supplied by a feeder to be suitable for service equipment.

I am looking at other structures that the grounding electrode is mandated and checking to see if the disconnect for the feeder is mandated to be suitable for service equipment.

I also understand that by design choice most manufacture homes have distribution panels that are suitable for service disconnects.
Just looking for the difference in what is mandated

Here ya go...

ARTICLE 225
Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders

II. More Than One Building or Other Structure

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided
for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or
pass through the building or structure.

225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment. The disconnecting
means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as
service equipment.

Exception: For garages and outbuildings on residential
property, a snap switch or a set of 3-way or 4-way snap
switches shall be permitted as the disconnecting means.

 

[jwelectric]

Smart you missed the ball on that one my friend.

550.11 Disconnecting Means and Branch-Circuit Protective Equipment. See related UL
The branch-circuit equipment shall be permitted to be combined with the disconnecting means as a single assembly. Such a combination shall be permitted to be designated as a distribution panelboard. If a fused distribution panelboard is used, the maximum fuse size for the mains shall be plainly marked with lettering at least 6 mm (? in.) high and visible when fuses are changed.
Where plug fuses and fuseholders are used, they shall be tamper-resistant Type S, enclosed in dead-front fuse panelboards. Electrical distribution panelboards containing circuit breakers shall also be dead-front type.

Informational Note: See 110.22 concerning identification of each disconnecting means and each service, feeder, or branch circuit at the point where it originated and the type marking needed.

(A) Disconnecting Means. A single disconnecting means shall be provided in each mobile home consisting of a circuit breaker, or a switch and fuses and its accessories installed in a readily accessible location near the point of entrance of the supply cord or conductors into the mobile home. The main circuit breakers or fuses shall be plainly marked “Main.” This equipment shall contain a solderless type of grounding connector or bar for the purposes of grounding, with sufficient terminals for all grounding conductors. The terminations of the grounded circuit conductors shall be insulated in accordance with 550.16(A). The disconnecting equipment shall have a rating not less than the calculated load. The distribution equipment, either circuit breaker or fused type, shall be located a minimum of 600 mm (24 in.) from the bottom of such equipment to the floor level of the mobile home.

Informational Note: See 550.20(B) for information on disconnecting means for branch circuits designed to energize heating or air-conditioning equipment, or both, located outside the mobile home, other than room air conditioners.

A distribution panelboard shall be rated not less than 50 amperes and employ a 2-pole circuit breaker rated 40 amperes for a 40-ampere supply cord, or 50 amperes for a 50-ampere supply cord. A distribution panelboard employing a disconnect switch and fuses shall be rated 60 amperes and shall employ a single 2-pole, 60-ampere fuseholder with 40- or 50-ampere main fuses for 40- or 50-ampere supply cords, respectively. The outside of the distribution panelboard shall be plainly marked with the fuse size.
The distribution panelboard shall be located in an accessible location but shall not be located in a bathroom or a clothes closet. A clear working space at least 750 mm (30 in.) wide and 750 mm (30 in.) in front of the distribution panelboard shall be provided. This space shall extend from the floor to the top of the distribution panelboard.

It does not require the panel on the inside to be rated as service equipment nor is there any requirement of any kind to install a grounding electrode either. 550 is a stand-alone Article unless referenced to another section of the code.

 

[Smart $]

Smart you missed the ball on that one my friend.

...

It does not require the panel on the inside to be rated as service equipment nor is there any requirement of any kind to install a grounding electrode either.

No, I did not.

First off, you only posted the requirement for mobile homes. I know mobile homes are different from manufactured homes, and some mobile homes still exist. However as Wayne (hurk27) noted earlier, since some time years ago (and I'm not going to look up the date), all manufactured housing falls into the manufactured home category... except seasonal, small footprint mobile housing that fall under the scope of Article 552 Park Trailers.

Additionally, my reply was aimed at paragraphs 2 and 3 of David's post.

Also, you (and others) seem to be forgetting that Article 550 either supplements or modifies Chapters 1 through 4. That means Article 550 must specifically, either directly or by reference, state a Chapter 1 through 4 requirement is relinquished. It cannot do so simply by exclusion.