NMB with Isolated ground ?

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
...not if you have hifi/audiophile customers. Then again, nothing standard about them.

Then sell them an IG receptacle - just because of their ignorance and it is also more profit than a non IG receptacle.

They will get the same value of equipment grounding either way. Maybe upsize to 10 or even 8 AWG conductor because it is better:happyyes:
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Assuming that the circuit originates at the service equipment and the box at the load end is non-metallic, there is no need for an "isolated" ground. The normal installation with NM that orginates at the service equipment and it terminated in non-metallic boxes provides the same benefit at an isolated ground circuit.

Yes I agree........that was my suggestion.

The question of an isolated ground receptacle came up at an audio forum and the person was going to run 3 wire and tape the red green. I was pretty sure you "couldn't" to be code compliant.

Now I know. Thank you.
 
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ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Just to throw this out there.

When I put my room together......even with a separate circuit, dimmers in the house, ac, washer....would all cause clicks, pops, humms etc....

I was about to install a separate isolation transformer feeding a separated isolated ground panel..... then read about and realized it was only permissible in commercial applications and the dangers in doing so.

I opted to plug one of these in ( the Furman) and all audio gear and equipment plugs into it.

Complete silence.

It's still isolating and creating its own ground in the unit (so I keep things separate as far as lighting and convenience receptacles and let people know if there touching a guitar or mic or something, not to touch the lights or anything
plugged into house power). Odds are there would be no problems, but you never know.


From what I see, this meets code being an appliance or a piece of equipment and I'm not deriving a separate ground....... agreed ?


Meet the Furman...........


http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=IT-20_II


Balanced power:

http://www.equitech.com/articles/bpng.html
 
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Speedskater

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Occupation
retired broadcast, audio and industrial R&D engineering
Isolation transformers in dwellings meets the code. It's balanced transformers in dwelling that don't meet code. It's not that a balanced AC system in a Home Theater or Recording Studio room is unsafe it just doesn't meet code.
For a big Home Theater or Recording Studio electrical system (and some of these Home Theater's have racks of equipment) a big isolation transformer with a 240V primary and dual 120V secondaries is the way to go.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
OK.................so what your saying is.........a 240v single phase with ground to a transformer primary, with a secondary out of 240/120 single phase (and a separate ground to earth than the main service ground) Is acceptable?

Or with a secondary of 120/120 3 wire with ground (120 each phase to neutral and each phase to ground...???0 phase to phase?????(separate earth or same earth)?


I see 647.3 .....120 v single phase 3-wire system with 60v on each of two ungrounded conductors to a grounded neutral conductor....being a violation. I'm reading that as 2- 120v legs to ground........correct?


??? What about.....640.9 (A)(2)...60v to ground.

Would the furman comply as it is one 120v to neutral and not two 120v to neutral???? And that they put it on the market so it should comply???

Trying to get my head around this.....Thanks for pointing this out to me.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
From what I understand........there's one earth ground bonded at one location on a residential service.....

Your saying you can derive a completely separate system residentially (new neutral.new ground???)?
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
Then sell them an IG receptacle - just because of their ignorance and it is also more profit than a non IG receptacle.

They will get the same value of equipment grounding either way. Maybe upsize to 10 or even 8 AWG conductor because it is better:happyyes:

The IG receptacle is a given, especially if they are asking you for two separate grounds. The idea is usually that they want a separate ground for the box, as when it is studded out, it creates interference.

Or whatever other reasons, like I said, not a standard client.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey


Ha ha ha ha.....I think this thing is illegal..............works but illegal!

I notice they're also not available anymore........geez...........

Thanks Speadskater............


Maybe something like this

http://www.stereophile.com/powerlineaccessories/ps_audio_power_plant_premier_ac_regenerator/

rather than transformers and panels.

Not getting rid of my illegal furman......but thanks for giving me the heads up.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
From what I understand........there's one earth ground bonded at one location on a residential service.....

Your saying you can derive a completely separate system residentially (new neutral.new ground???)?

A separately derived system needs to be grounded if it supplies premesis wiring.

NEC 2008 250.20(B)
(B) Alternating-Current Systems of 50 Volts to 1000 Volts. Alternating-current systems of 50 volts to 1000 volts that supply premises wiring and premises wiring systems shall be grounded under any of the following conditions:
(1) Where the system can be grounded so that the maximum voltage to ground on the ungrounded conductors does not exceed 150 volts
(2) Where the system is 3-phase, 4-wire, wye connected in which the neutral conductor is used as a circuit conductor
(3) Where the system is 3-phase, 4-wire, delta connected in which the midpoint of one phase winding is used as a circuit conductor

If you install a separately derived system that needs to be grounded you must run a grounding electrode conductor and bond to the service grounding system also. This makes your equipment ground the same as the equipment ground from the service. I am no audio expert but from what I understand a lot of this noise comes from problems in the speaker wiring more so than from equipment grounding.



The IG receptacle is a given, especially if they are asking you for two separate grounds. The idea is usually that they want a separate ground for the box, as when it is studded out, it creates interference.

Or whatever other reasons, like I said, not a standard client.

In a typical dwelling you have a non metallic box and NM cable to the service panel. What is a second grounding conductor going to isolate? If you do use an isolated grounding receptacle you will need either a second grounding conductor or a grounded metal box or some way to ground the isolated yoke. What interference is just the yoke or a 1 gang metal box going to collect? Chances are you will pick up more interference in the equipment ground, equipment racks, power cords, and other grounded items anyway. Most data problems that IG was really meant for were not problems with the equipment ground from my understanding but were ground loop problems within data cables like between a computer and printer or other peripheral device.
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
A separately derived system needs to be grounded if it supplies premesis wiring.

NEC 2008 250.20(B)

If you install a separately derived system that needs to be grounded you must run a grounding electrode conductor and bond to the service grounding system also. This makes your equipment ground the same as the equipment ground from the service. I am no audio expert but from what I understand a lot of this noise comes from problems in the speaker wiring more so than from equipment grounding.





In a typical dwelling you have a non metallic box and NM cable to the service panel. What is a second grounding conductor going to isolate? If you do use an isolated grounding receptacle you will need either a second grounding conductor or a grounded metal box or some way to ground the isolated yoke. What interference is just the yoke or a 1 gang metal box going to collect? Chances are you will pick up more interference in the equipment ground, equipment racks, power cords, and other grounded items anyway. Most data problems that IG was really meant for were not problems with the equipment ground from my understanding but were ground loop problems within data cables like between a computer and printer or other peripheral device.

A lot of basements (I know a lot of regions have never heard of them :ashamed1: ) are steel Studded. And when it comes to, in particular, subwoofers, ground loop interference is a real issue that is actually very common, by no means rare.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Well, if the customer thinks an iso ground is neccessary for their sounds, be sure to sell them a few of these receptacles (you get a discount buying four) explain that installing these receptacle will improve the listening experience along with their overall health, brain power, strength, sex life, understanding of others, money management, etc...,. The power of these receptacles is breathtaking. ;)

Roger
 

svh19044

Senior Member
Location
Philly Suburbs
Well, if the customer thinks an iso ground is neccessary for their sounds, be sure to sell them a few of these receptacles (you get a discount buying four) explain that installing these receptacle will improve the listening experience along with their overall health, brain power, strength, sex life, understanding of others, money management, etc...,. The power of these receptacles is breathtaking. ;)

Roger

I had a customer supply me with private cryogenically treated receptacles, they were only $60 per. :lol:
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Well, if the customer thinks an iso ground is neccessary for their sounds, be sure to sell them a few of these receptacles (you get a discount buying four) explain that installing these receptacle will improve the listening experience along with their overall health, brain power, strength, sex life, understanding of others, money management, etc...,. The power of these receptacles is breathtaking. ;)

Roger


WOW........I've been listening, eq'ing, compression, delay............etc....... every "little" bit does a "little" bit........... critical listening I guess .


As far as these receptacles.......WOW.......I find it hard to believe, but listening so closely to a change hear or there....ya never know.


Thank you for the laugh...................WOW.......


NO- I'm not buying any.....
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Well, if the customer thinks an iso ground is neccessary for their sounds, be sure to sell them a few of these receptacles (you get a discount buying four) explain that installing these receptacle will improve the listening experience along with their overall health, brain power, strength, sex life, understanding of others, money management, etc...,. The power of these receptacles is breathtaking. ;)

Roger

A customer writes:

However, I realised that I had, metaphorically, been barking up the wrong tree. the beautiful performance of the amplifier derives not only from the quality of the parts, but from the SYNERGY they bring about assmbled with enough care and diligence. So, I hypothesized, to get the maximum benefit, the entire amp must be thus treated as one, and so I ordered 300 l of liquid helium (eye-wateringly expensive ,but still the closest I could realistically afford to get to 0 K) and after cooling an expanded polystyrene tank, in went the helium and shortly after the amplifier. Judging by the amount of helium boil, the amp's electrons must have been very incoherent indeed but a few hours later it was all done bar a slow thaw. The next day, to test it, I plugged everything in BAR an audio source so I could experience pure amp noise floor. After turning it on, absolute silence, even when the attenuator was at 0 dB. Amazing
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A lot of basements (I know a lot of regions have never heard of them :ashamed1: ) are steel Studded. And when it comes to, in particular, subwoofers, ground loop interference is a real issue that is actually very common, by no means rare.

And the ground loop problem is in the amplifier output - not the premesis wiring, premesis wiring problems might be improperly bonded neutral beyond the service, fix that and no need for isolated grounding methods.
 

Speedskater

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Occupation
retired broadcast, audio and industrial R&D engineering
This thread seems to be going about a dozen different directions!

For everything you need to know about AC power wiring to Audio/Video systems and for that matter instrument or control systems, the following papers total about 145 pages of good information.

The Bill Whitlock of Jensen Transformers Seminar paper
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/generic seminar.pdf

The Jim Brown of Audio Systems Group white paper
"Power and Grounding for Audio and Audio/Video Systems"
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf

"Power White Paper" from Middle Atlantic.com
http://www.middleatlantic.com/power.htm

or a different version of the same paper

"The TRUTH" from ExactPower of Middle Atlantic Products
http://www.exactpower.com/elite/wpapers.aspx


If that's not enough reading, try:

http://www.hottconsultants.com/
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/index.html
 

Speedskater

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Occupation
retired broadcast, audio and industrial R&D engineering
I'm not a fan of 120V balanced power because:
a] It's very expensive.
b] NEC rules can make some installations difficult and other impossible.
c] The real world results are often nowhere as good as the advertising claims.
It seems like a great idea in theory with the power symmetrical about ground, the leakage currents will cancel out.
But in real equipment the power transformers are not wound symmetrically from grounds point of view, so we still have leakage currents.

The papers in my above post, touch on this subject.
 
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