OTHER CONTRACTS TERMINATING IN YOUR GEAR

[petersonra]

Replacing a fuse is not working on the equipment. Trying to nit pick the verbage of the posters who are in the "not my problem" crowd, soed not reflect what the point I think most are trying to make.

I am with the "not my problem" crowd here. If Simplex installed the fire alarm system and then Joe Blow came along, purchased some duct detectors off of Ebay and installed them, do you think Simplex is going to honor any warranty?

Regarding court issues, I would expect that once someone else touches my stuff, the court would place the burden on them to prove that the equipment itself or my work was the direct cause of the issue. Normally the burden would be on me to prove that the issue was caused by circumstances beyond my control to void the warranty. So, yes, I think the court would back me up. To expect that the warranty is void just because we say so is not what I think others here meant either. I have made that statement. That said if the customer called me out because the B phase lug was burnt up because it was not tightened enough, I am probably going to fix it, because I would believe that it was bad craftmenship by us. If the bus burned up because a breaker was not properly tightened and the panel was factory assembled, then they can get the new electrician out there to fix it, or pay me up front and deal with the factory. It is their equipment and they had someone else work on it. I no klonger feel obligated to spend the time and deal with the factory for the repair.

Lets face it, if we use this argument it is protectionism. I don't want someone else to go in to a building I am working on just becase they were $3 cheaper. So I will use any legal means I have to prevent it. I think you would be a fool not to.

I have used this argument many times. It has never failed me yet. I have not had to go to court over it, but the customers and GC's I have dealt with accepted the premise.

If I was the GC or the end user I might well not argue with you over it either. As a practical matter if something goes wrong, most of the time it is pretty obvious what happened and who is responsible. A decent contractor is not going to try and weasel his way out of responsibility by claiming that someone else touched the equipment when it is clear that the other guy did not cause the problem. And a contractor that tried might well get away with it because the cost of suing them might exceed what could be recovered. But, you can bet that the consequences to a contractor that did such a thing would be pretty draconian, at least as far as ever getting work there again. And the word would spread what happened.

OTOH, if there was a huge problem and it did end up in court, I suspect that such a clause would not offer much protection. You just do not get to void the UCC (or whatever your state has in its place) that way. It is possible that a lawyer could come up with some wording that would offer you some protection, but would a customer accept that kind of wording? Keep in mind that some things that are commonly included in contracts are not readily enforceable in court, and what can be enforced varies from state to state.

 

[roger]

Are you going to exclude everything from warranty because the customer's electrician opened up an MCC to replace a fuse?

Replacing a fuse or resetting a breaker is by design a customer performed task so that won't work as a good example for an argument

I do want to note that if my warranty becomes null and void, (yes, for the reasons I mention) that does not mean the manufacturers warranty is. For example, besides my warranty SQ D, C_H, GE, etc... has their own limited warranty that would still be in affect.


I have a project going on right now that has a five year warranty on the generator and a twenty five year warranty on the MV cable, so our warranty will be over well before either of those. Hopefully I'll have been retired for 17 years when the cable warranty expires.

Roger

 

[iwire]

As a practical matter if something goes wrong, most of the time it is pretty obvious what happened and who is responsible. A decent contractor is not going to try and weasel his way out of responsibility by claiming that someone else touched the equipment when it is clear that the other guy did not cause the problem.

I agree 100%, it is almost always very clear how the problem happened.

If my service conductor terminations melt down supplying some switch gear I can't get out of it because some other contrator added a properly calculated and installed circuit from the gear.

 

[roger]

I agree 100%, it is almost always very clear how the problem happened.

If my service conductor terminations melt down supplying some switch gear I can't get out of it because some other contrator added a properly calculated and installed circuit from the gear.

How do you know that the other work did not cause the problem with your service conductors. I don't know how it works elsewhere but I do know I can do as I have stated here.

Roger

 

[krisinjersey]

Warranty

Warranty

You guys are confusing the two types of warranties.
Equipment is warranteed from defects during manufacturing and over the life of that device. It covers just the equipment and is a contract between the purchaser and the manufacturer facillitated by the authorized retailer. Gear is warranteed by the manufacturer separate of the wire, the crimp lugs, the fittings.
The warranty you as a contractor provide is for the labor and installation. So when you put in a piece of equipment and it fails, the investigation show who the liabel party is, either through incorrect installation or deployment, or failure of the piece. If a breaker failed prematurely, through no fault of our own, the vendor would come out and look at it and provide me with a warranty replacement part as well as a check for labor tto replace it. If you just eat eery warranty issue you're a fool.

 

[Strathead]

If I was the GC or the end user I might well not argue with you over it either. As a practical matter if something goes wrong, most of the time it is pretty obvious what happened and who is responsible. A decent contractor is not going to try and weasel his way out of responsibility by claiming that someone else touched the equipment when it is clear that the other guy did not cause the problem. And a contractor that tried might well get away with it because the cost of suing them might exceed what could be recovered. But, you can bet that the consequences to a contractor that did such a thing would be pretty draconian, at least as far as ever getting work there again. And the word would spread what happened.

OTOH, if there was a huge problem and it did end up in court, I suspect that such a clause would not offer much protection. You just do not get to void the UCC (or whatever your state has in its place) that way. It is possible that a lawyer could come up with some wording that would offer you some protection, but would a customer accept that kind of wording? Keep in mind that some things that are commonly included in contracts are not readily enforceable in court, and what can be enforced varies from state to state.

Pretty much what I am trying to say. I don't think the other posters here mean that they would walk away from something they did wrong. Or in the unlikely event they would, the wouldn't admit it here. Like I said though, I think the burden of proof on items that were not clear would shift to the other side. That is a big difference.

In the same vein, I NEVER turn on someone elses equipment. Mostly thinking of HVAC, but I leave the disconnect in the off position. I will not energize even if they are standing there. That is there responsibility for similar issues to what we are discussing.

 

[Fulthrotl]

In the same vein, I NEVER turn on someone elses equipment. Mostly thinking of HVAC, but I leave the disconnect in the off position. I will not energize even if they are standing there. That is there responsibility for similar issues to what we are discussing.

agreed.

last month, i did a hook up on a air handler that was being changed. 208 volt, going from 60 hp to 50 hp.
all i was doing was pipe and wire, disconnect, etc. the vfd was existing. my scope of work was hooking up
a new motor, with new pipe and wire.

LOTO padlock went on the VFD when we started. no settings were changed. i asked hvac contractor if he
wanted the motor meggered when i meggered the feeders, and he said yes.... lifted the feeders off the VFD,
meggered the feeders, disconnect, and motor, opened the disconnect, locked it, landed the feeders, pulled
the lock of the VFD, handed the LOTO key for the disconnect to the HVAC guy doing the setup, and walked
away.

i don't turn on anyone's equipment. if you smoke it, you own it.

 

[iwire]

How do you know that the other work did not cause the problem with your service conductors.

Seriously?:?:huh:

I mean if it looks like they dropped a wrench across the terminals and blew it up we would not cover that.

But if the terminals melted down due to a failure on our part we would cover that even if other contractors added to the gear. (Legally, code compliantly etc)

 

[templdl]

they really do that? wow. good to know. glad you clarified that for me.
who would have thought those scum could do that.... of course, realize
that probably a fair chunk of the people reading this are those standing
around, do nothing parasites... probably posting on this forum instead
of working...

until a piece of equipment i'm furnishing has been ACCEPTED in WRITING
by the customers representative, meaning that my one year period
of warranty has begun, other people working on it, modifying it,
doing whatever to it doesn't work.

once i have signed release from the customer, they can do anything they
want to or with it. it's theirs.

I see you're here to read this. Working are you?
"they really do that? wow. good to know. glad you clarified that for me.
who would have thought those scum could do that.... of course, realize
that probably a fair chunk of the people reading this are those standing
around, do nothing parasites... probably posting on this forum instead
of working...":happyyes:
I was pointing out real experiences and you reply with this. What's your point?
I have run into instances when unions pull a temper tantrum when I send out warranty people to do warranty work on the gear that I supplied where union workers are.
I say fine, you can do the work while my guys watch but I'm only paying for my guys though. No problem but I'm not paying double.
Also, there is sort of a gray area between installing and energizing gear and then having someone sign off on it when there are no loads connected by other contractors. Please understand that this is not meant to include modification to the gear but only terminations to breakers, motor starters, if it happens to be close coupled to that which is supplied by others, etc. Is there such a thing as start up? Does a customer customarily sign of prior to start up?

 

[ritelec]

I think the other contractor should bring his own switchgear.........

 

[roger]

Seriously?:?:huh:

I mean if it looks like they dropped a wrench across the terminals and blew it up we would not cover that.

But if the terminals melted down due to a failure on our part we would cover that even if other contractors added to the gear. (Legally, code compliantly etc)

Bob, even though I might have proceeded with voiding my warranty and a problem became apparent that was our fault, we would certainly fix it simply due to moral obligations if nothing else but, let's say I get called back for something like the metering equipment not working that was working when we finished the project.

Now, I send someone out 70 miles or so and we find the wiring to a control transformer damaged and we also find new conductors and breakers installed in this gear. I am not going to repar this under my warranty and I am not going to repair it with the expectation that I track down the other contractor for compensation, the customer will have to sign a service ticket and he/she can go after their reimbusrsment.

Roger

 

[iwire]

let's say I get called back for something like the metering equipment not working that was working when we finished the project.

Now, I send someone out 70 miles or so and we find the wiring to a control transformer damaged and we also find new conductors and breakers installed in this gear. I am not going to repar this under my warranty and I am not going to repair it with the expectation that I track down the other contractor for compensation, the customer will have to sign a service ticket and he/she can go after their reimbusrsment.

We would do the same.

 

[Strathead]

Bob, even though I might have proceeded with voiding my warranty and a problem became apparent that was our fault, we would certainly fix it simply due to moral obligations if nothing else but, let's say I get called back for something like the metering equipment not working that was working when we finished the project.

Now, I send someone out 70 miles or so and we find the wiring to a control transformer damaged and we also find new conductors and breakers installed in this gear. I am not going to repar this under my warranty and I am not going to repair it with the expectation that I track down the other contractor for compensation, the customer will have to sign a service ticket and he/she can go after their reimbusrsment.

Roger

My feeling is the same if the issue was a manufacturer defect. Their decision to bring in another electrical contractor is a slap in my face. Our company does not work for nothing, but I am very careful to give a good product for a good price and the owner feels the same. So if they bring someone else in they are cutting corners and they are not the type I want as repeat customers anyway. I would fix anything I know that or it is likely that we did. However, the labor involved with a manufacturer defect is on the manufacturers warranty, not mine. I feel obligated (and believe contract law does as well) to fix the item for the customer and deal with the manufacturer/vendor for my payment. Once a different electrician works on the equipment, this is what is voided in my mind. They can deal with the manufacturer, pay me or some other electrician up front. They made their bed , they can lay in it.

 

[templdl]

Bob, even though I might have proceeded with voiding my warranty and a problem became apparent that was our fault, we would certainly fix it simply due to moral obligations if nothing else but, let's say I get called back for something like the metering equipment not working that was working when we finished the project.

Now, I send someone out 70 miles or so and we find the wiring to a control transformer damaged and we also find new conductors and breakers installed in this gear. I am not going to repar this under my warranty and I am not going to repair it with the expectation that I track down the other contractor for compensation, the customer will have to sign a service ticket and he/she can go after their reimbusrsment.

Roger

That's how I did it. I would require a PO from the customer first to do the visit on a charges to be determined basis. If the problem was mine then customer would not be billed.
I have even replaced product that was out of warranty if it was proven to be obviously defective when it was manufactured. I sure that I didn't cover labor but I have covered the part. As a reputable manufacturer I have had not problem in doing that.