We have a builder in the residential area that was told by another electrician that an outdoor kitchen at the back porch is considered a "kitchen" and therefore requires arc-fault protection per the 2014 NEC code. My stance is that this relates to indoor living areas only and that the only requirement for outdoor circuits is GFI protection. So, has anyone else been told that the outdoor kitchen circuits have to be arc-fault protected?
Outdoor Kitchens - require arc-fault?
- Thread starter joecalvin
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jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
If it is 'in' the dwelling unit yes.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
I am having a hard time envisioning an outdoor kitchen in a residence, so that answers the question for me.
The word 'in' does not refer to circuits inside the dwelling..... it refers to circuits in the kitchen. Since there's no exception for kitchens located outdoors, AFCI protection would be required.
Provided, of course, the space meets the definition of a kitchen.
Provided, of course, the space meets the definition of a kitchen.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
As long as the definition of a kitchen and dwelling unit applies to the area I would agree needs AFCI protection -- does not say indoors
- Location
- Massachusetts
Where is the panel supplying the branch circuits?
the power is being supplied from the sub-panel in the garage. There are no 220's, its just a UC frige and a couple of counter plugs at a counter with a sink (sometimes no sink)
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
We have not been given enough information to determine whether the area that is "conversationally" described with a phrase that includes the "K" word really does satisfy the NEC definition of "kitchen." If for example there is no sink then the matter is resolved: it is not a kitchen and therefore does not require AFCI. To use my own home as another example, I have what I like to call an "outdoor kitchen." It is about 20 feet away from the rear patio door, and does not share a wall with the house. In this area I keep and use a gas grill, a charcoal grill, a smoker, and a turkey fryer, not one item of which constitutes a "permanent provision for cooking." So that area is not a "kitchen" by the NEC definition. If the gas grill was of the type that is permanently mounted, instead of having wheels, then the issue could be open to debate.
So let me toss a question back to joecalvin: what sort of cooking equipment do these areas have, and can that equipment be classified as "permanent"?
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
But even without permanent cooking is it now a wet bar -- and would that be defined by its purpose & not as an area described in the dwelling unit -- Interesting
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
The presence of a sink does not cause an area to become a wet bar. I can have a sink solely for the purposes of cleaning fish, or for rinsing bathing suits after people have changed in the cabana.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
I would classify these as kitchens.
The first three are not in a dwelling. As far as we know they are 300' from a dwelling, barn, or bar. GFCI, yes. AFCI, No. The last, maybe.
Where, in the definition of a kitchen, or the AFCI requirements for a kitchen, does it say said kitchen must be INSIDE?
The standard outdoor kitchen configuration is such: it is on the back patio area (right off the back door.....some have walls extending from the side of the house), there is about a 4 to 5 foot counter with 2 plugs on the back splash and a UC frig underneath. There is usually a small sink with a gas grill mounted at the other end. The gas grill is mounted to the end of the counter area but does not require any electrical. The back patio area usually includes about 4 recess can lights and a ceiling fan in the middle.
- Location
- Massachusetts
So here is the thing.
You are on one hand taking advantage of them being the same structure while at the same time claiming it is separate.
If it is separate part II of 225 limits you to one branch circuit. It is not separate AFCIs required.
IMNSHO
We basically run 1ea 20a dedicated GFI circuit out to the outdoor kitchen for the UC frige and 2 counter plugs
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Doesnt a kitchen countertop require at least two branch circuits supplying it with devices spaced at specific intervals?
mjf
Senior Member
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jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Outside is not a dwelling unit kitchen. It is an outdoor kitchen.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Exactly. Other walls have receptacle requirements as well.
I think NEC probably needs to make clarifications as to whether an area that is outdoors but otherwise meets the definition of some specific area that is traditionally indoors still applies to the outdoor space.
Otherwise as is I tend to believe outdoors is outdoors, otherwise one could call most any outdoor patio one of "family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room" and if so then 210.52(A) receptacle requirements would kick in. Leaving me with if it is outdoors, 210.52(E) is what applies. That still doesn't really clarify whether 210.12 applies though. Some work is needed in the NEC to make the intention for things like this clearer.
IMO AFCI is supposed to be about fire prevention, leaving my personal feelings on whether AFCI does what it is supposed to do aside, I don't see it necessary for most of the images presented in this thread so far.
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