Outside GFI on Arc Fault Breaker

[jwatts]

Recently completed a couple of three unit apartment buildings. We fed the outside GFI off of the living room circuit, which is on an Arc Fault Breaker as required. Today the inspector knocked the use of a GFI receptacle on an Arc Fault Circuit. Stating the NEC says one or the other. I thought they could be used together, as they are designed for different types of protection. Need something to refute the inspectors decision..... otherwise have to go back and repull the units to put the ouside GFI on a non arc fault circuit.

 

[gndrod]

Recently completed a couple of three unit apartment buildings. We fed the outside GFI off of the living room circuit, which is on an Arc Fault Breaker as required. Today the inspector knocked the use of a GFI receptacle on an Arc Fault Circuit. Stating the NEC says one or the other. I thought they could be used together, as they are designed for different types of protection. Need something to refute the inspectors decision..... otherwise have to go back and repull the units to put the ouside GFI on a non arc fault circuit.

The NEC 2011 does not negate an AFCI-GFCI Combined circuit arrangement. A good example is the use of a panel AFCI feed for a kitchen counter small appliance circuit GFCI continuing on to feed the dining area wall receptacles AFCI-GFCI protection. [210.12(B)] [210.52(C)]

 

[pete m.]

Recently completed a couple of three unit apartment buildings. We fed the outside GFI off of the living room circuit, which is on an Arc Fault Breaker as required. Today the inspector knocked the use of a GFI receptacle on an Arc Fault Circuit. Stating the NEC says one or the other. I thought they could be used together, as they are designed for different types of protection. Need something to refute the inspectors decision..... otherwise have to go back and repull the units to put the ouside GFI on a non arc fault circuit.

How about instead of you finding something to refute this inspectors decision you ask the inspector what code section you are in violation of. I, for one, would be very interested to see what he/she comes up with.

Pete

 

[Sierrasparky]

Boy another inspector engineer, code writer, know-it-all.

He wants to prohibit a GFCI on a AFCI protected circuit- WOW he knows nothing about what electrical installs are all about. :dunce:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I suggest that you remind the inspector that almost all brands, except GE, have some amount of GFCI built into their AFCI.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I suggest that you remind the inspector that almost all brands, except GE, have some amount of GFCI built into their AFCI.

Telling him that might support is current misdirected opinions and or demands.

 

[Hendrix]

How about instead of you finding something to refute this inspectors decision you ask the inspector what code section you are in violation of. I, for one, would be very interested to see what he/she comes up with.

Pete

And then ask to see his masters licence :jawdrop:

 

[jwatts]

Inspector told me that no where in the code does it say that they can be installed in combination. I responded with no where does it say they can not. Got the "I've been to seminars and they say they can't be together". I would like to know who "they" are. He said when he tested the GFI, it tripped the arc fault breaker and he didn't like that. After some discussion he said he would discuss it with the other inspector and get back to me..... the fact he is talking to someone else gives me hope.

 

[pete m.]

Inspector told me that no where in the code does it say that they can be installed in combination. I responded with no where does it say they can not. Got the "I've been to seminars and they say they can't be together". I would like to know who "they" are. He said when he tested the GFI, it tripped the arc fault breaker and he didn't like that. After some discussion he said he would discuss it with the other inspector and get back to me..... the fact he is talking to someone else gives me hope.

I don't know how inspections work in Chicago but around here if I defect a job I had best be able to provide the NEC section that has not been complied with.

If I were you I would simply ask for the code section that you have not complied with. It doesn't have to be a confrontational experience.

Pete

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... I would like to know who "they" are. He said when he tested the GFI, it tripped the arc fault breaker and he didn't like that. ...

It could do that if he uses a plug in GFCI tester, but should not if he uses the test button on the GFCI.

 

[Sierrasparky]

It could do that if he uses a plug in GFCI tester, but should not if he uses the test button on the GFCI.

Really why not. I have not opened a GFCI in a long time, as i recall all that the test button is a load to ground!

 

[mlnk]

GFCI test button is not a load to ground. Test button works on ungrounded GFCI. My question: per 2011 NEC is the dining room required to have AFCI protection?

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

GFCI test button is not a load to ground. Test button works on ungrounded GFCI. My question: per 2011 NEC is the dining room required to have AFCI protection?

yes

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

 

[sameguy]

Time for the old split bus with afci feeder?

 

[jaylectricity]

Just once I'd like to get an inspector fail me on something like this so I could look at him and say, "Is there anyone at the office who actually understands the NEC? When I paid the town for the permit I was under the impression that they'd be sending a professional out to inspect my work."

 

[floater4444]

yes

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall
be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

So, no more bath, hall, smokie circuits? I like to not put the Smokie on an arc fault. What is the new smokie circuit then? just Bath/smokie?

I would do small appliance to the dining room too, and it was a GFI protected Dining room. Now, the dining room needs to be on what? A arc fault, or a gfi, or both? This is the 2011 code right.

 

[floater4444]

Inspector told me that no where in the code does it say that they can be installed in combination. I responded with no where does it say they can not. Got the "I've been to seminars and they say they can't be together". I would like to know who "they" are. He said when he tested the GFI, it tripped the arc fault breaker and he didn't like that. After some discussion he said he would discuss it with the other inspector and get back to me..... the fact he is talking to someone else gives me hope.

I am glad I found these forums, because it seems like a lot of electricians are like this. Too smart for their own good. I too am glad he is talking to someone else about it. He should join the forums.

 

[George Stolz]

So, no more bath, hall, smokie circuits? I like to not put the Smokie on an arc fault. What is the new smokie circuit then? just Bath/smokie?

Smokes have been required to be on an AFCI-protected circuit since the 2002 cycle, by virtue of the fact that smokes are required in bedrooms, as was AFCI protection.

I would do small appliance to the dining room too, and it was a GFI protected Dining room. Now, the dining room needs to be on what? A arc fault, or a gfi, or both? This is the 2011 code right.

If you were to route the circuit through the dining room prior to serving a kitchen countertop, then you would not have GFCI protection on that portion of the circuit. GFCI protection is not required in the dining room. AFCI protection is required for dining rooms.

Inspector told me that no where in the code does it say that they can be installed in combination.

The inspector has a fundamental problem with interpreting the NEC: it is a permissive document that exists for the sole purpose of telling us what we can't do. If something is not forbidden by the NEC, then it is inherently compliant. Until he understands this, then there is no hope for him.

I responded with no where does it say they can not.

Good for you! :thumbsup:

Got the "I've been to seminars and they say they can't be together".

He must be busy playing with his phone or sleeping when attending seminars.

He said when he tested the GFI, it tripped the arc fault breaker and he didn't like that.

...And on what planet is that considered to be an unsafe series of events? :huh:

 

[iamski]

Not to be off topic, why would you want to put outside receptacles on afci's? It's been my experience that some motors will trip the afci's because of the arc produced by the brushes. I'm new to this forum :thumbsup:, not trying to start a fight, just curious. I've had issues with afci and ceiling fans in bedrooms, so I take the time to separate the two. If this is the wrong place for this post, Mods please delete, Thank you!

 

[George Stolz]

To save money - usually outside outlets are very near to AFCI circuits.