peak utility readings vs actual loads

[mivey]

Published in 1997? New standards and a lot more global coordinations between those had changed the rules. That paper is obsolete.

Still current as far as the manufacturer is concerned and that is what really counts isn't it?

My referenced paper had clearly stated that gensets CAN BE operated at their prime rating with the life penalties outlined therein.

So? Who has said you can't operate at the prime rating? What has the prime rating got to do with sizing a standby generator? If you will refer to the documents, the prime rating is less than the standby rating for the same piece of iron. In fact, one of the examples shows how the different ratings for the same piece of iron line up. Still no overload allowance for the standby rating.

Your referenced paper does not say anything different that what I have said.

Apperently more than one readers and contributors to this posting seems to read it the saem way or had the same understanding.

I have also said the prime rating allows for a 10% overload rating capacity. That does not change the fact that the standby capacity has no overload rating. Evidently you are not reading what I have said.

 

[weressl]

Not even close. So completely off the mark that you are not even in the right ballpark.

Enlighten me then, oh great and mighty Karnak.

 

[mivey]

Enlighten me then, oh great and mighty Karnak.

The envelope please...:

#1: Carnac not Karnak

#2: Electric utilities have been around since at least the late 1800's. FERC has only been around since 1977 (1930 if you count FRC). NERC has only been around since 1968 (re-born in 2006 with the same same). Always had? Not even close, even if they had.

#3: Neither FERC nor NERC regulate sales to consumers. FERC is mostly about interstate activity and NERC is a reliability entity. Retail metering and billing is not what they do. Always will? Not hardly. Not even close.

#4: Utilites are not always regulated by state commissions, nor do the commissions always control the rates, billing, and metering standards. Not even close. Even commissions that regulate now were not always around. Always had? Always will? Not even close.

 

[weressl]

The envelope please...:

#1: Carnac not Karnak

#2: Electric utilities have been around since at least the late 1800's. FERC has only been around since 1977 (1930 if you count FRC). NERC has only been around since 1968 (re-born in 2006 with the same same). Always had? Not even close, even if they had.

#3: Neither FERC nor NERC regulate sales to consumers. FERC is mostly about interstate activity and NERC is a reliability entity. Retail metering and billing is not what they do. Always will? Not hardly. Not even close.

#4: Utilites are not always regulated by state commissions, nor do the commissions always control the rates, billing, and metering standards. Not even close. Even commissions that regulate now were not always around. Always had? Always will? Not even close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnak Johnny Carson simply committed an error by claming to be the High Priest of that temple.

Interstate coordination, including the defining terms and transit, was defined by the coordinating body SINCE and HENCE it existed.

It is not a question of regulating sales, just defining common terms. (Re. California attempting to sue Texas energy firm's sales is just one example.)

It is not a question of regulation, it is a question of definition of common terms.

 

[mivey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnak Johnny Carson simply committed an error by claming to be the High Priest of that temple.

I yield to Johnny's version. If it were not for him...

Interstate coordination, including the defining terms and transit, was defined by the coordinating body SINCE and HENCE it existed.

Has nothing to do with you saying "when ALL Utilities were run by the same rules was this definition established and still carries today." Never happened. As kwired suspected, it can vary from utility to utility.

It is not a question of regulating sales, just defining common terms. (Re. California attempting to sue Texas energy firm's sales is just one example.)

Has nothing to do with a common definition for retail demand charge. They can vary from utility to utility.

It is not a question of regulation, it is a question of definition of common terms.

Regulators can set the definitions of those terms. kwired asked if a 15 minute demand was a requirement. It is not and can vary from utility to utility. He was correct to tell the OP to check with the utility to be sure what was provided as it can be any number of things as I outlined earlier.

About the only thing common is that demand is the rate of energy exchange. Definitons for demand charges and how demand are metered and folded/spindled/mutilated can vary quite a bit.

 

[weressl]

I yield to Johnny's version. If it were not for him...

Has nothing to do with you saying "when ALL Utilities were run by the same rules was this definition established and still carries today." Never happened. As kwired suspected, it can vary from utility to utility.

Has nothing to do with a common definition for retail demand charge. They can vary from utility to utility.

Regulators can set the definitions of those terms. kwired asked if a 15 minute demand was a requirement. It is not and can vary from utility to utility. He was correct to tell the OP to check with the utility to be sure what was provided as it can be any number of things as I outlined earlier.

About the only thing common is that demand is the rate of energy exchange. Definitons for demand charges and how demand are metered and folded/spindled/mutilated can vary quite a bit.

Yep, keep perpetuating cultural ignorance.

Demand is ALWAYS defined as power unit consumed in a set period of time. Most often used is k(M)W, but some distributors also charge for kVAR. The time period is most often 15 min. but 30 and 60 minutes also exist, but used less and less frequently. With the introduction and implementation of the Smart grid, it is expected to take a SINGLE uniform time period and unit for the precise reason of intrastate commerce.

 

[mivey]

Yep, keep perpetuating cultural ignorance.

Perpetuations washed up on the shores of Lake Weressl. It was you who chose to mix cultural references when you made the mistake of mixing a personality of comedic cultural significance with a place of cultural significance.

But you know what? I really have limited interest in your deflections. Playing Whack-A-Mole has limited entertainment value and gets boring after a while.


But to get back on the main track, the OP should:

1) Verify the demand data obtained and what it represents.

2) Check the loads to have supporting information to go with the demand data.

3) Make sure the standby unit can handle the peak if it occurs at a high ambient temperature.

4) Get the generator supplier involved so they can provide information about minimal loading and other sizing concerns.

Demand is ALWAYS defined as power unit consumed in a set period of time. Most often used is k(M)W, but some distributors also charge for kVAR. The time period is most often 15 min. but 30 and 60 minutes also exist, but used less and less frequently.

Nice to see you agree with me every now and then.

With the introduction and implementation of the Smart grid, it is expected to take a SINGLE uniform time period and unit for the precise reason of intrastate commerce.

Since the impacts of transients is not uniform across the electric system, I doubt there will be a uniform time period for everything. Perhaps for relatively small retail loads you could establish a uniform period for interstate supply purchases but that remains to be seen. One size definitely does not fit all conditions. That is just the way it is.

 

[weressl]

Perpetuations washed up on the shores of Lake Weressl. It was you who chose to mix cultural references when you made the mistake of mixing a personality of comedic cultural significance with a place of cultural significance.

So you're claiming that Johny Carson did NOT use the Temple of Karnak as the base reference, his character had nothing to do with it and his erroneous spelling is not slipped by the US public because of cultural/historical ignorance?

But to get back on the main track, the OP should:

1) Verify the demand data obtained and what it represents.

2) Check the loads to have supporting information to go with the demand data.

3) Make sure the standby unit can handle the peak if it occurs at a high ambient temperature.

4) Get the generator supplier involved so they can provide information about minimal loading and other sizing concerns.


Nice to see you agree with me every now and then.

You wrote: "About the only thing common is that demand is the rate of energy exchange. Definitons for demand charges and how demand are metered and folded/spindled/mutilated can vary quite a bit. "

 

[mivey]

So you're claiming that Johny Carson did NOT use the Temple of Karnak as the base reference, his character had nothing to do with it and his erroneous spelling is not slipped by the US public because of cultural/historical ignorance?

First off, if misspelling a name is a sign of cultural ignorance, what does your misspelling of JohNNy say about you? I think it is a bunch of hooey, so it is probably more of a don't-care issue. Levels of cultural/historical ignorance are just matters of opinion anyway. I really could care less.


I have no idea what Johnny Carson used as a base reference. Since I have no compelling need to find a smoking gun to use to demean a nation I have not put that much thought into it. If I had to venture a guess I would say that being the comedian he was, he just picked a name that sounded funny to him: no more, no less.

But just for fun, there are several possibilities, some which include:

1) Carnac France, home of the Carnac stones and the Carnacois people and is a place of mystery and mythical legends. It dates back to 4500BC. Same spelling as Carson's comedic character.

2) Karnak Egypt, home of a temple complex dating back to about 2000BC. With a different spelling from Carson's comedic character.

3) Carnac Island Australia. An island named after John Rivett-Carnac of India.

4) The Indian family of Carnac, including: John Rivett-Carnac, an admiral in the British navy and brother to James Rivett-Carnac, a governor of Bombay India. At least now we are talking about names of people.

5) Carnacki the Ghost-Finder, the fictional Sherlock Holmes type character of Thomas Carnacki who played the role of a supernatural detective. It is interesting to note that Carson appeared as the magician "The Great Carsoni" at a young age so making up names and role-playing was nothing new to Johnny. Adopting a name or a variation of a name as a character would not be unexpected.

I'm sure there are other possibilities but who really cares? Carnac was a fictional comedic character played by Johnny Carson. Why does it have to be turned into a statement about how some people should be perceived as better than others because they may or may not have some level of "culture"? Why not just accept it as the comedy that it was?

 

[mivey]

You wrote: "About the only thing common is that demand is the rate of energy exchange. Definitons for demand charges and how demand are metered and folded/spindled/mutilated can vary quite a bit. "

Yeah, I know what I wrote. After all, I wrote it.

So, electrical demand is a rate of exchange of electrical energy (a measure of power in other words). The way it is measured varies across utilities. The way demand costs are passed along through demand charges varies across utilities.

So what is your issue or do you just like quoting me (not that there is anything wrong with that)?