Power is Off??

[mxslick]

badbrad, welcome to the forum.

After reading this entire thread, I agree with your concerns, and also think that the electrician you had on this case didn't know what he was doing.

If I am understanding your posts correctly, you state that the neutral and ground bus' don't have anything other than branch circuit conductors connected to them? That is a huge problem that your "electrician" should have spotted right away and would explain why nothing was working even though power was on. If you were to have turned on lights/equipment on opposite legs you would have things working or going up in smoke.

My suggestion is to get another electrician in to look at things and explain what they find to you to help your understanding of what's going on.

If you can get and post pictures of the panel with the cover off it would help everyone understand what you're seeing.

 

[George Stolz]

Thank you for your kind responses. I have some questions and comments that may be appropriate.
If a home is missing the ground rod and the neutrals and grounding conductors were floating inside the service disconnect, under conditions would there be an eminent safety hazard? (Keep in mind this home has at least a partial knob and tube system)
What are the repercussions of a broken neutral in the utility company?s service?
What happens if there is a power surge or a lightening strike on the service supply lines?
Would this affect a GFCI?
Is it acceptable to have a residual voltage anywhere inside a home? (Pretend you are being asked by an attorney in front of a jury)
This is great fun, thanks for the help.

Your observations, and your resulting questions, are too vague to garner a meaningful and conclusive answer to any of these questions.

In regards to the limitations of the tic tracer, sniffer; it is interesting to see the different points of view from the different trades. As electricians you see trees instead of forests.

I think it's a little odd to discount experienced electricians opinions. I have seen people test a chunk of MC with a tic tracer and proceed to blow their nines in half. I've seen people test a wet chunk of NM and blow their strippers in half. An "experienced electrician" that does this is an idiot. A novice can be forgiven for making the mistake. A novice that refuses to heed experienced advice can be grouped with the experienced idiots, IMO.

Granted a tic tracer may react to electromagnetic waves from high power sources, and they may be shielded from 110 volts by wet insulation, but under what circumstances could a bare piece of energized metal that is subject to human contact fail to show on a tic tracer? This is an important question because many thousands of people rely on this device for safety. If they are not safe, or only safe when used under certain conditions then I would like to know to spread the word. Some on the posts seem to discount their worth.

Obviously it has worth, I have had one continuously since I have been in the trade. It is just not the right tool with which to "entrust your safety." It is just an indicator with quirks, not a guarantee of anything.

Go into a grocery store with your tic tracer and test the glass in the frozen foods aisle. Touch it with your hand. The tic tracer is not a definitive "go/no go" test for safety.

Here is a copy of the letter I sent to PG&E after calling emergency services

I think it's premature to call the POCO out for an open neutral before having a decent electrician examine the house itself, but I imagine it's a free service call from the POCO. The problem is, without someone in the know stating the symptoms in a technical and professional way, the trouble crew sent out to look it over will likely not look very hard, and see what they want to see on their side of the meter: no problem, even if there is one. It's a common story.

I hope you don't think I'm coming down hard on you; I agree that there are likely some problems with the house, but without conclusive testing, documentation and troubleshooting throwing out theories is a bit counterproductive for us, the POCO, the buyer and the seller. Get a real meter and a camera on the first trip, and you'll be helping all parties out.

 

[quogueelectric]

Your observations, and your resulting questions, are too vague to garner a meaningful and conclusive answer to any of these questions.


I think it's a little odd to discount experienced electricians opinions. I have seen people test a chunk of MC with a tic tracer and proceed to blow their nines in half. I've seen people test a wet chunk of NM and blow their strippers in half. An "experienced electrician" that does this is an idiot. A novice can be forgiven for making the mistake. A novice that refuses to heed experienced advice can be grouped with the experienced idiots, IMO.


Obviously it has worth, I have had one continuously since I have been in the trade. It is just not the right tool with which to "entrust your safety." It is just an indicator with quirks, not a guarantee of anything.

Go into a grocery store with your tic tracer and test the glass in the frozen foods aisle. Touch it with your hand. The tic tracer is not a definitive "go/no go" test for safety.

I think it's premature to call the POCO out for an open neutral before having a decent electrician examine the house itself, but I imagine it's a free service call from the POCO. The problem is, without someone in the know stating the symptoms in a technical and professional way, the trouble crew sent out to look it over will likely not look very hard, and see what they want to see on their side of the meter: no problem, even if there is one. It's a common story.

I hope you don't think I'm coming down hard on you; I agree that there are likely some problems with the house, but without conclusive testing, documentation and troubleshooting throwing out theories is a bit counterproductive for us, the POCO, the buyer and the seller. Get a real meter and a camera on the first trip, and you'll be helping all parties out.

The most important lesson to be learned from this direction that the thread has taken is to READ the instructions for the proper use of test equipment.
One of the most important communication skills is to use proper terminology and sniffer is not on an electricians tool list unless he goes into a lot of manholes.
Not to be mean but no one is going to take you serious when you call a tic tracer a sniffer. The tool has limitations which are described in the operating instructions. From what I can understand you may have a small voltage being backfed from neighboring houses on the compromised neutral system.
Poco will never openly admit guilt for anything and not many electricians understand grounding and bonding enough to be able to troubleshoot such a rare problem. Get yourself a nice digital meter and learn to use it.
Remember what exactly you are qualified to diagnose and do not cause unnecessary problems for both the buyer and the seller. Leave the electrical diagnosis for a professional. An errant report read by the bank can cause incredible unnecessary hardship on the buyers and sellers.
I understand you have all good intentions and you seem to be someone who is genuinely concerned for your customers safety but you need more training before jumping to conclusions.
This is not a case of stray voltage. In my opinion.

 

[badbrad]

Crawlspace

Crawlspace

George-

I am in a crawlspace with 18" clearance from grade to bottom of joists. I come across a 12? metal air duct. How can I know if it energized?

I go a little farther and I come across another duct that is moist from condensation from temperature differentials caused by cool air inside the duct. How can I know if it is energized?

I go a little farther and the soil is damp. How does this affect my safety? By the way there is a child in an iron lung in the back bedroom that cannot be shut down, so the main breaker cannot be shut off.

These are not vague questions. A father and son were killed last year when the father went into a crawl space to work on the ducts. When the father would not respond the son went in after him and was electrocuted when the son touched the father?s foot. The homeowner turned off the main breaker but both were dead by the time emergency services arrived. A sniffer would have saved their lives.

When a person of obvious knowledge casts doubts over basic safety tools then you are placing people at risk. Are service personnel going to carry wiggys and multi meters, or are they going to carry sniffers? Sniffers, if anything at all. So when you diminish the importance of tools like these and do not provide usable replacement tools then you leave the common man with nothing but uncertainty and that places them at risk. If a sniffer is not safe to use then recommend a useable replacement tool that can do the same job better or provide them with useable information on how to use that tool safely. This is basic risk management.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, in closing let me remind you of the important facts of this tragic case. Our so called inspector had reason to believe there was some kind electrical problem in this house. In his ?professional? opinion the risk associated with this ?phantom voltage? was so slight that he chose to withhold that information from his client. Not only did he withhold it from his client but also from the utility company who was greatly more qualified to make that determination. As a result we have little Johnny who was born with this terrible hang nail. A hang nail, mind you that was formed while still a fetus in his mother?s womb. My clients were mislead into living in a literal microwave of electromagnetic radiation which our despicable inspector said was safe. Little Johnny?s life has forever been damaged by this incompetence. Who is he to set personal exposure levels in this regard? Is he the EPA? Or NIOSH? I think not! Ladies and gentleman I am asking you to have this man taken without the gates of the city and there executed in accordance with his crimes?.
Even if I successfully defended against this frivolous suit I still lost. As a home inspector you must identify, describe, disclaim, and defer. If you find it, you better report it or you will wind up in court. Especially oddball stuff like this. This is the kind of stuff that ends home inspector?s careers.

 

[iwire]

badbrad you came here asking for advice yet you refuse to listen to the advice given.

You are a danger to yourself.

 

[cschmid]

It falls within the occupational duties of a home inspector to perform the tasks he has described, and to open a panel cover and test for voltage inside a home.

Treatment of New Members

If you don't wish to help the OP, that's fine, move on to the next thread. There is no reason to belittle him.

who belittled him?

 

[cschmid]

Man and to think you guys think my opinion is wrong...:roll:

 

[iwire]

Lets stay on topic.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I think that this is on topic because we are helping a non electrically related professional.
He is acting outside of this SOP.

A home inspection is a visual non-invasive examination of a home.

I have always said that acting like an expert, HI's are generalists, will come back to bite you.

I know HI's watch this site and that is good. My experience (Ohio) is that many HI"s want to act as electrical inspectors by talking about bonding/grounding, code when they should be doing a visual inspection.

IMO the panel cover should not be removed as part of a home inspection. How is that non-invasive. If you remove the cover and say nothing have you basically said that it is safe?

HI's find many unsafe conditions in homes but do not know when to stop before acting like an expert.

Inspecting electrical is not the same as looking for a plumbing leak.

 

[iwire]

I think that this is on topic because we are helping a non electrically related professional.
He is acting outside of this SOP.

This is not up to you and I direct you to Treatment of New Members

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Are service personnel going to carry wiggys and multi meters, or are they going to carry sniffers?

Since I don't own a "sniffer", I carry a voltage tester.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

badbrad you came here asking for advice yet you refuse to listen to the advice given.

You are a danger to yourself.

I think badbrad has stated some valid concerns and I commend him for wanting to take this to a more through level.

What is it that he said that brings you to the conclusion he is a danger to himself?

 

[iwire]

I think badbrad has stated some valid concerns and I commend him for wanting to take this to a more through level.

I agree.

What is it that he said that brings you to the conclusion he is a danger to himself?

The fact he asks for advice from experienced electricians and choose to ignore it.

I am a firm believer in a volt tick but it has no place at all in troubleshooting.

 

[George Stolz]

A sniffer would have saved their lives.

When a person of obvious knowledge casts doubts over basic safety tools then you are placing people at risk.

You're right, trying to educate a layman on the caveats of using non-contact voltage detectors is dangerous. I tire of this discussion, I am out of it. Do what you want.

 

[dbuckley]

The question is why a non-contact voltage detector might show grounded parts as being live. It has nothing to do with actually troubleshooting.

If the probe is brought near something that really is grounded and the floor the person holding it is standing on is vaguely live then the bleepy thing bleeps.

Vaguely live walls and floors are fairly common... sometimes even in installations that were done right, but have subsequenntly gone wrong eg nail through romex... hard to find without a megger...

 

[jxofaltrds]

This is not up to you and I direct you to Treatment of New Members

Bob

I think that the posts on the first page where more harsh than mine.

I made statements of fact. I did not say that he was unqualified as others did.

I do not think that a HI meets the requirements, and by the questions asked and the statements he made, of this site.

Yes you are correct that it is not up to me.

I am a guest here and have always tried to act as such.

 

[quogueelectric]

If you call a non contact voltage tester a sniffer one more time I am going to scream.

We are all concerned for strangers safety this is why as you combat us with decades of experience trying to teach you to do your job better we still engage you in conversation.

We are just as or more committed to ensuring electrical safety as anyone on the planet. However as professionally licensed and trained individuals we have a strict set of rules that we must follow to prevent liability from our good deeds.

There are many electrocution hazards all over this planet and you may have come within inches of your life thousands of times and never even knew it. A non contact voltage tester indicates a 60 hz radio frequency in the air it is basically an antenna and has serious limitations of what exactly it is indicating. At the risk of repeating myself READ THE INSTRUCTIONS so we can all help you understand what exactly this magnetic wave means to you.
Please don't take this as being mean I am trying to help you understand what you are experiencing but I need a little help from your end. As a professional you need to use proper terminology and sniffer does not exist unless you are looking for Co /Co2/ methane and such.

 

[Barjack]

NCVT's should only be used in the first step of testing for voltage, if used at all. They should always be backed up by a solenoid tester, or digital meter to verify the presence of voltage. Although I find them handy for certain applications, my boss won't use them. He calls them "cheater sticks".

 

[LarryFine]

They should always be backed up by a solenoid tester, or digital meter to verify the presence of voltage.

Solenoid, yes; meter if low impedance or across a load.

 

[hillbilly1]

I have seen this happen on many mobile homes, and manufactured houses for the politically correct. The original service installer installs a three wire cable to the panel, since the grounds and neutrals are correctly seperated, a short in the wiring to the equipment ground energizes everything connected to it. The screw in anchors that tie the trailer down do not provide a low enough resistance to trip any breakers. This being a regular house, may have had an improperly install panel upgrade were the neutrals and grounds, if any, were seperated but not tied together at the service disconnect.