Protect old ungrounded circuit with GFCI outlets or GFCI breakers?

[dirtynails]

Working on an ancient apartment with 2 really old circuits fed into the 20 year old panel, the kitchen and bath had new circuits at that time. So there's lights and 2 outlets on each. I can simply replace the outlets with GFCIs, or replace the breakers. The cost difference isn't much, like $80 vs 100. I know I need to use the UNGROUNDED labels on the plates, but which would be best practice?

If I really wanted to cheap out I could probably do both circuits on one breaker. Total would be 4 outlets and 3 ceiling lights in the 3 room apt, and the bedroom has an outlet on a modern circuit by the window for an AC.

 

[letgomywago]

Do the breaker

 

[Fred B]

I'd say do the breaker, as a modification by changing the 2 prong receptical to 3 prong will initiate the requirement for AFCI as well so a dual function AF-GFCI would fix both.
(2017 NEC - 406.4(D)(4)Replacements.
Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.4(D)(1) through (D)(6), as applicable. Arc-fault circuit-interrupter type and ground-fault circuit-interrupter type receptacles shall be installed in a readily accessible location.

 

[ptonsparky]

I’ve got socks older than 20 years, but ‘2 really old circuits’ brings up MWBC. As long as that isn’t an issue Dual Function breakers seem to be a good choice.

 

[infinity]

What is the wiring method? When I see old apartment I think of type AC.

 

[letgomywago]

What is the wiring method? When I see old apartment I think of type AC.

Then afci device is the goto for areas thatd need gfi

 

[dirtynails]

I’ve got socks older than 20 years, but ‘2 really old circuits’ brings up MWBC. As long as that isn’t an issue Dual Function breakers seem to be a good choice.

Haha, one of my favorite lines from a book is "I got shoes older than you kid"! But to also answer @infinity, the "old" circuits are more like 100 years old, AC with cloth covered wire and no bonding wire, some of the 'new' 2002 circuits are MWBC. Seems like a single AFCI/GFCI breaker is the best solution, unless there's a code saying all the overhead lights can't be on one circuit. Given how much new construction has no overheads, it seems unlikely.

 

[infinity]

With wiring at 100 years old you might be surprised that a AFCI/GFCI breaker won't work.

 

[dirtynails]

With wiring at 100 years old you might be surprised that a AFCI/GFCI breaker won't work.

Well that's concerning! Any way to tell other than blowing $50 trying it? I've read threads about problems with these breakers.

 

[mtnelect]

Be prepared for those 3:00 am calls !

 

[tortuga]

Well that's concerning! Any way to tell other than blowing $50 trying it? I've read threads about problems with these breakers.

Stating the obvious here but you can test for continuity between the unlanded neutral and the ground bar.

 

[dirtynails]

Stating the obvious here but you can test for continuity between the unlanded neutral and the ground bar.

Given the neutral and ground bars are bonded at the main panel by code, I don't see how this test resolves anything unless there's something executed wrong or you mean something that's not obvious like disconnecting the circuit neutral from the subpanel and THEN testing it.

 

[ptonsparky]

Yes, disconnect it.

 

[AC\DC]

do you have an insulation tester. That be best bet, I hear horror stories about these old wiring constantly tripping afci/GFCI breakers.
been doing for 5 years on my own, lots of changes and I think only had one bad time and was with only a couple circuits.

 

[tortuga]

disconnecting the circuit neutral from the subpanel and THEN testing it.

Yeah, when I am doing a panel change, in the old fusebox/panel as I unland each neutral (ok grounded circuit conductor ) I do a continuity test from the now detached neutral to the neutral bar to see if there is a parallel path to ground remaining, you need to store the unlanded neutrals back in their slots until your done of course.
GFCI breaker or not a indication of a parallel path would indicate a prior code violation that might not be 'grandfathered' becasue of the all the conductors of a circuit rule (300.3)

 

[chi]

Working on an ancient apartment with 2 really old circuits fed into the 20 year old panel, the kitchen and bath had new circuits at that time. So there's lights and 2 outlets on each. I can simply replace the outlets with GFCIs, or replace the breakers. The cost difference isn't much, like $80 vs 100. I know I need to use the UNGROUNDED labels on the plates, but which would be best practice?

If I really wanted to cheap out I could probably do both circuits on one breaker. Total would be 4 outlets and 3 ceiling lights in the 3 room apt, and the bedroom has an outlet on a modern circuit by the window for an AC.

the code will not permit you to combine the two circuits for multiple reasons.

 

[dirtynails]

the code will not permit you to combine the two circuits for multiple reasons.

Can you elaborate? I've read it's fine as long as the wiring is to local code and the expected loads are within the breaker's spec. Typically you pigtail the circuits to the breaker, not jam them both on there if the breaker was not designed for 2 like a SQD. Why would this be any different than a junction box combining 2 circuits to one outside the panel?

 

[ptonsparky]

The kitchen and bathroom are separate. Go for it.

 

[tortuga]

How many SQFT is the apartment?

 

[dirtynails]

How many SQFT is the apartment?

450ft. This is a tiny place with very little load. I have one identical unit where the electric has never been updated, and still has a 2 15A circuit 'screw in' fuse panel fed by a single 20A main breaker in the basement! Amazingly, over the years the unit has very rarely popped any of the circuits. In the place I'm working on the kitchen and bath do have code compliant separate circuits, the biggest load this circuit would see is one like 5k BTU AC.