PV Disconnect N/G bonded

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hhsting

Senior Member
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Glen bunie, md, us
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Junior plan reviewer
My comment about the 2020 addressing this issue in 250.25 was in reply to the bonding and grounding part of the question. My comment says that you treat the line side tap for the solar disconnect like a service disconnect for the purposes of bonding and grounding under the 2020 code.

As far as the 2023, I have sat in on a number of Task Group meetings and Code Panel meetings. There was a specific Task Group set up to submit comments on the issue of the line side solar disconnect being a service disconnect. The TG has members from CMPs 4, 5 and 10. However they receied direction from the Correlating Committee that it WILL be a service disconnect in the 2023 code and the TG is working out the details and language changes needed to accomplish that. It appears that CMP 10 will have purview over the disconnect and the the purview of CMP 4 will start at the load terminals of the disconnect.

However, the issue is not clear in the 2017 code. You work for the AHJ, so you or your boss makes the call.

What about purposes of grouping? NEC 2020 does not address. I know we are in NEC 2017 but I am in middle of writing local amendment for.my boss for mainly grouping solar AC service disco tapped on line side with building main service disco.
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I have no idea what you are trying to say with that, but yes, backfed breakers connecting PV utility interactive inverters to the grid by code do not require hold downs.
What I'm trying to say is that the inverter doesn't make its own voltage, when connected to an otherwise de-energized output circuit. It looks for a voltage waveform that is already there and within spec, and then produces a voltage waveform of its own that directly depends on the existing grid voltage, in order to push current onto the grid.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
My comment about the 2020 addressing this issue in 250.25 was in reply to the bonding and grounding part of the question. My comment says that you treat the line side tap for the solar disconnect like a service disconnect for the purposes of bonding and grounding under the 2020 code.
Can you point me to the relevant part of the 2020 code? Here in Texas, which has adopted the 2020 NEC statewide, only one major AHJ (CPS in San Antonio) requires breaking the EGC and bonding neutral to ground in the PV AC disconnect for a supply side connected PV system that does not incorporate an isolation transformer.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
What I'm trying to say is that the inverter doesn't make its own voltage, when connected to an otherwise de-energized output circuit. It looks for a voltage waveform that is already there and within spec, and then produces a voltage waveform of its own that directly depends on the existing grid voltage, in order to push current onto the grid.
OK, but I was wondering about the part where you said that the voltage and current waveforms were out of phase. The output of a grid tied PV inverter is very close to power factor 1.0.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
My comment about the 2020 addressing this issue in 250.25 was in reply to the bonding and grounding part of the question. My comment says that you treat the line side tap for the solar disconnect like a service disconnect for the purposes of bonding and grounding under the 2020 code.

As far as the 2023, I have sat in on a number of Task Group meetings and Code Panel meetings. There was a specific Task Group set up to submit comments on the issue of the line side solar disconnect being a service disconnect. The TG has members from CMPs 4, 5 and 10. However they receied direction from the Correlating Committee that it WILL be a service disconnect in the 2023 code and the TG is working out the details and language changes needed to accomplish that. It appears that CMP 10 will have purview over the disconnect and the the purview of CMP 4 will start at the load terminals of the disconnect.

However, the issue is not clear in the 2017 code. You work for the AHJ, so you or your boss makes the call.
exactly the problem my ahj and myself experienced Don , the '20 gained neither of us any clarity

~RJ~
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Can you point me to the relevant part of the 2020 code? Here in Texas, which has adopted the 2020 NEC statewide, only one major AHJ (CPS in San Antonio) requires breaking the EGC and bonding neutral to ground in the PV AC disconnect for a supply side connected PV system that does not incorporate an isolation transformer.
250.25 Grounding Systems Permitted to Be Connected on the Supply Side of the Disconnect.

The grounding of systems connected on the supply side of the service disconnect, as permitted in 230.82, that are in enclosures separate from the service equipment enclosure shall comply with 250.25(A) or (B).

(A) Grounded System.
If the utility supply system is grounded, the grounding of systems permitted to be connected on the supply side of the service disconnect and are installed in one or more separate enclosures from the service equipment enclosure shall comply with the requirements of 250.24(A) through (D).
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
250.25 Grounding Systems Permitted to Be Connected on the Supply Side of the Disconnect.

The grounding of systems connected on the supply side of the service disconnect, as permitted in 230.82, that are in enclosures separate from the service equipment enclosure shall comply with 250.25(A) or (B).

(A) Grounded System.
If the utility supply system is grounded, the grounding of systems permitted to be connected on the supply side of the service disconnect and are installed in one or more separate enclosures from the service equipment enclosure shall comply with the requirements of 250.24(A) through (D).
They have to around in circles with this one 680 to 705 to 230 to 250. In working with the chief inspector and AHJ the conclusion is with consideration of 2020 and 2023 proposals they are agreeing to consider the installation meets definition of a service and the subsequent requirements.
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
OK, but I was wondering about the part where you said that the voltage and current waveforms were out of phase. The output of a grid tied PV inverter is very close to power factor 1.0.
It all comes down to the sign assignments of what we call positive current at a point we measure it. In the following example, I would say the power factor of the inverter is -1.0, rather than +1.0. The resistive load by contrast has +1.0 as its power factor.

Consider the following diagram:
1629420154509.png

The voltage is the function of time V(t), is established by the grid. We connect the load, that draws power from the grid. The current that the load draws, is measured by the sensor marked I1(t). We also connect an inverter source, and include a sensor marked I2(t). We set up the sensors such that they both assign current as positive when it flows in the direction indicated. The + sign on the voltage sensor indicates that voltage is positive, when the voltage at that point is higher than the voltage at the point marked 0. We could reverse the sensors if we desired, which might seem more logical for an inverter, but to make my point, I'm giving both sensors the same orientation and sign convention.

V(t) is given by the following equation, where U and w are constants:
V(t) = U*cos(w*t)

Given a linear load with unity power factor, and resistance R, the current through the load would therefore be:
I1(t) = U/R * cos(w*t)

The waveform V(t) and I1(t) are both in-phase with each other. The only difference is that U gets reduced by the factor of R. Graph them on the same plot, and they both start at the maximum value, then coast to zero, then fall to the minimum value, rise back to zero, and then rise back to the maximum value. The two waveforms are in phase

Moving onto I2(t). Due to being a source rather than a load, it will supply power to the grid, rather than drawing power from the grid. This means that when voltage is positive, the current from the inverter flows upward on this diagram, "uphill" due to being given energy by the inverter source. This means that when voltage is positive, the sensor I2(t) measures a negative value. The opposite happens during the negative half of the cycle. When voltage is negative, the sensor I2(t) measures a positive value. The amplitude of the inverter's current waveform is a constant we'll call J.

Current I2(t) is therefore, the function:
I2(t) = -J*cos(w*t)

It is the same wave shape, but it is the negative of what current feeding a load would be.

Alternatively, we can write this with a phase shift term, rather than a negation:
I2(t) = J*cos(w*t + 180 deg)

This is why it has a 180 degree phase shift. Current I2(t) is 180 degrees out of phase with current I1(t), due to the fact that we set up our sensors to make I1(t) positive when V(t) is positive. The power factor is the cosine of this phase shift. The cosine of 180 degrees is -1.

A common misconception about power factor, is the use of the negative sign to indicate the property of a leading vs lagging. The sign of the power factor has nothing to do with this property. The sign of the phase offset angle is what really indicates this. Power factor = cosine of this angle, and cosine ignores the angle's sign completely due to the symmetry of the function. You need an angle greater than 90 degrees to get cosine to become negative. A negative power factor means that the real power component is negative. Given a current sensor set up to meter a load as positive, a negative real power means that you are measuring a source rather than a load
 
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jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
250.25 Grounding Systems Permitted to Be Connected on the Supply Side of the Disconnect.

The grounding of systems connected on the supply side of the service disconnect, as permitted in 230.82, that are in enclosures separate from the service equipment enclosure shall comply with 250.25(A) or (B).

(A) Grounded System.
If the utility supply system is grounded, the grounding of systems permitted to be connected on the supply side of the service disconnect and are installed in one or more separate enclosures from the service equipment enclosure shall comply with the requirements of 250.24(A) through (D).

Thanks. I realize now that this ended up in 250 because the other CMP wouldn't put it in 705.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
OK, but I was wondering about the part where you said that the voltage and current waveforms were out of phase. The output of a grid tied PV inverter is very close to power factor 1.0.

Measured from the normal utility direction the inverter output PF is usually very close to -1.0
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Thanks. I realize now that this ended up in 250 because the other CMP wouldn't put it in 705.
There is no question that all grounding and bonding rules are under the purview of CMP 5 and such rules belong in Article 250. That is a big part of the problem...the members of CMP 4 think they can do whatever they want.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
There is no question that all grounding and bonding rules are under the purview of CMP 5 and such rules belong in Article 250. That is a big part of the problem...the members of CMP 4 think they can do whatever they want.
so perhaps you've hit the real crux of the issue Don

~RJ~
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
so perhaps you've hit the real crux of the issue Don

~RJ~
That is why CMP 10 proposed a new Article 231 that would have covered all of the line side connection stuff in 705.

I am pretty sure that the proposed new article is what dove the correlating committee to give the purview for the line side disconnects to CMP 10. As a result, I don't expect to see Article 231 in the 2023 code.
 
Well, if a fused disco to a supply side interconnection were wired with the utility on the load side of the switch, would you want to change the fuses?
I think there's a misunderstanding: the code doesn't say "on top", with respect to direction relative to the center of the earth: when one of you is saying "on top" I think that's what s/he's referring to, and the other is referring to "on top" to indicate the line-side of the main service disconnect. The code is agnostic as to whether the service disconnect is wired from the bottom up or the top down or the side, to be clear, as long as the switch operates in the proper direction and everything else is good. [response to early part of thread, probably obvious, sorry]
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I think there's a misunderstanding: the code doesn't say "on top", with respect to direction relative to the center of the earth: when one of you is saying "on top" I think that's what s/he's referring to, and the other is referring to "on top" to indicate the line-side of the main service disconnect. The code is agnostic as to whether the service disconnect is wired from the bottom up or the top down or the side, to be clear, as long as the switch operates in the proper direction and everything else is good. [response to early part of thread, probably obvious, sorry]
It would be a violation to install most disconnects upside-down, because vertical handles on switches and breakers are required to have an up-oriented handle that corresponds to the ON position. It is also an industry standard to build the line-side terminals on the top, and the fuses/load-side terminals on the bottom. In this case, it really does matter how the switch is oriented relative to gravity, so "top" is synonymous with "line-side". I've seen safety switches built within switchboards that are horizontal and could be rotated either direction within the equipment, but for separately-installed safety switches, I've only seen those with a vertical motion of the handle.

The only exception I know about to this rule of handle orientation, is travelling switches. The up/down relation to the to on/off status is transient, and varies with the state of other switches in the circuit.
 
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