PVC Conduit

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Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Here's probably a dumb question!:ashamed1:

I have never ran a long run of exposed PVC conduit outside. If a run is say, 40' and you use expansion couplings, do you need to put an expansion coupling at every joint?
Or just one in the middle?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
As long as the joints are able to move back and forth, the only requirement is that the one expansion coupling, located in the middle or at either end, hss enough travel to take up the expansion of a 49' run.
Be sure to set the initial position correctly based on temp at install time.

Tapatalk!
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Here's probably a dumb question!:ashamed1:

I have never ran a long run of exposed PVC conduit outside. If a run is say, 40' and you use expansion couplings, do you need to put an expansion coupling at every joint?
Or just one in the middle?
Just one...in middle okay, but placement in run not required. Actually, I don't believe an expansion fitting is required for a 40' run either.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
No, just one expansion fitting should have enough travel to cover 40' of run.

Keep in mind the supports for PVC are supposed to allow the pipe to slide through them for expansion and contraction.

Also the NEC support requirements for PVC requirements are offten overlooked,

See Table 352.30 Support of Rigid Polyvinyl Chloride Conduit (PVC)



Maximum Spacing Between Supports

0.5"-1" = 3'

1.25"?2" = 5'

2.5"?3" = 6'

3.5"-5" = 7'

6" = 8'


So install many supports but leave them loose enough to let the pipe slide through them.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Actually, I don't believe an expansion fitting is required for a 40' run either.

Assuming the run is between two fixed points I believe all it would take is an expected temperature change of around 18F to trigger 352.44s requirements.

I would use one.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Assuming the run is between two fixed points I believe all it would take is an expected temperature change of around 18F to trigger 352.44s requirements.

I would use one.
As a result of your post, I reevaluated my [former] belief and concur with your conclusion... but my calculation indicated only a 15.4?F change kicks in the requirement. ;)
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Assuming the run is between two fixed points I believe all it would take is an expected temperature change of around 18F to trigger 352.44s requirements.

I would use one.

What it will be is:
90? up to another 90?
then approx 41' straight run ending in an LB

This will all be at the top of the outside wall up against the soffit

Then from the LB, which is being used to turn the corner, to a 90?
from the 90? down to another 90?
straight run of approx 26' ending in an enclosure

The bottom run (26') will be behind landscaping (read bushes, shrubs, etc) mostly out of the sun. Would it also need an expansion coupling?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
What it will be is:
90? up to another 90?
then approx 41' straight run ending in an LB

This will all be at the top of the outside wall up against the soffit

Then from the LB, which is being used to turn the corner, to a 90?
from the 90? down to another 90?
straight run of approx 26' ending in an enclosure

The bottom run (26') will be behind landscaping (read bushes, shrubs, etc) mostly out of the sun. Would it also need an expansion coupling?
Evaluated using the record max and min temps for TN (113, -32, swing 145) and an expansion fitting would be required for any straight run over 4.25'. That is, 1/4" change every 4.25'. :?

Perhaps I calculated that wrong... :blink:
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
What it will be is:
90? up to another 90?
then approx 41' straight run ending in an LB

This will all be at the top of the outside wall up against the soffit

Then from the LB, which is being used to turn the corner, to a 90?
from the 90? down to another 90?
straight run of approx 26' ending in an enclosure

The bottom run (26') will be behind landscaping (read bushes, shrubs, etc) mostly out of the sun. Would it also need an expansion coupling?

1) Figure out the lowest expected temperature for the year. Call it L.
2) Figure out the highest temperature for the year. Call it H.
3) If the conduit is run on a roof get the additional value from Table 310.15(B)(3)(c) using the climate data for your location, call it
R.
4) If not on a roof assign zero to R.
5) Determine the maximum temperature difference H + R - L. Call it T.
6) Look in Table 352.44 under "Temperature Change (?F)" for the value greater than or equal to T.
7) Note the corresponding value under "Length Change..." beside the entry found in step 6. Call it E.
8) Divide the length of each straight run in feet by 100 feet, Call that F.
9) Multiply E and F, call the result M.
10) If M is less than ? (0.25) inches, no expansion fitting is required.

11) If M is greater than ? (0.25) inches, one or more expansion fittings are required.
12) Determine the maximum slip length in the expansion fitting for the size conduit you are using, call it S.
13) If S is greater than or equal to M, then you need one expansion fitting.
14) If S is less that M, Divide S by M. Call the answer N.
15) If there is no remainder (or fractional part) from the division, you need N expansion fittings.
16) If there is a remainder (or a fractional part) from the division you need N + 1 expansion fittings.

17) Determine the installation temperature, call it C.
18) Subtract C - L, call it X.
19) Divide X by T, call it Y.
20) Multiply Y by S, call it Z.

21) Z (using the fractional part) is the number of inches from shortest you need to set the expansion fitting(s) when you install the
fitting. Suggest you mark it on the inner tube of the fitting.

22) Save your calculations in case the inspector wants to see them.

SUMMARY:

L = lowest yearly temp
H = highest yearly temp
R = additional factor for roof heating
T = maximum temp difference
E = expansion in inches/100 feet
F = hundred foot equivalent
M = maximum expansion
S = slip length of an expansion fitting
N = number related to number of expansion fittings
C = current temp
X = current temp less lowest temp
Y = ratio of current temp to highest temp
Z = setting, in inches upon installation.

Input:
L, H, S, C

Lookup:
R, E

Calculations:
T = H + R - T
F = (run in feet) / 100
M = E * F
N = M / S
X = C - L
Y = X / T
Z = Y * S
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Wow! A textual manual virtual spreadsheet for the calculation.
Nicely done.
Ditto.

He's secretly employed by the IRS to design their forms... :p

However, there's a mistake in the first line under Calculations... second T should be L

Also 'run in feet' could use 'D'.
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
CORRECTED

CORRECTED

1) Figure out the lowest expected temperature for the year. Call it L.
2) Figure out the highest temperature for the year. Call it H.
3) If the conduit is run on a roof get the additional value from Table 310.15(B)(3)(c) using the climate data for your location, call it

R.
4) If not on a roof assign zero to R.
5) Determine the maximum temperature difference H + R - L. Call it T.
6) Look in Table 352.44 under "Temperature Change (?F)" for the value greater than or equal to T.
7) Note the corresponding value under "Length Change..." beside the entry found in step 6. Call it E.
8) Divide the length of each straight run in feet by 100 feet, Call that F.
9) Multiply E and F, call the result M.
10) If M is less than ? (0.25) inches, no expansion fitting is required.

11) If M is greater than ? (0.25) inches, one or more expansion fittings are required.
12) Determine the maximum slip length in the expansion fitting for the size conduit you are using, call it S.
13) If S is greater than or equal to M, then you need one expansion fitting.
14) If S is less that M, Divide S by M. Call the answer N.
15) If there is no remainder (or fractional part) from the division, you need N expansion fittings.
16) If there is a remainder (or a fractional part) from the division you need N + 1 expansion fittings.

17) Determine the installation temperature, call it C.
18) Subtract C - L, call it X.
19) Divide X by T, call it Y.
20) Multiply Y by S, call it Z.

21) Z (using the fractional part) is the number of inches from shortest you need to set the expansion fitting(s) when you install the

fitting. Suggest you mark it on the inner tube of the fitting.

22) Save your calculations in case the inspector wants to see them.

summary:

L = lowest yearly temp
H = highest yearly temp
R = additional factor for roof heating
T = maximum temp difference
E = expansion in inches/100 feet
F = hundred foot equivalent
M = maximum expansion
S = slip length of an expansion fitting
N = number related to number of expansion fittings
C = current temp
X = current temp less lowest temp
Y = ratio of current temp to highest temp
Z = setting, in inches upon installation.

Input:
L, H, S, C

Lookup:
R, E

Calculations:
T = H + R - L
F = (run in feet) / 100
M = E * F
N = M / S
X = C - L
Y = X / T
Z = Y * S
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
Is that something you have for a course you teach or did you just write that up?

That's mighty kind of you to post that.

I just wrote it up.... but I saved the file on my computer and might use it as part of a two-day course I'm helping with for those who wire and inspect marinas and boat docks.

I've often wondered why so few PVC runs have the required expansion fittings (and break, typically in cold weather). I think that it is just not the expense of the expansion fittings, but the work involved in the calculations. So nobody buys expansion fittings and so the wholesalers don't stock them, so you can't just wander in and get them, so you don't bother.

With an initial inspection for all new and existing marinas and boat docks (with electricity) due the end of the year, this may become an issue.
 

delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
Excellent Calculations!
But if somebody is too lazy to calculate, I figure 100 degree temp change for mentally calculating on those small odd jobs. That equals about 4 in. per 100 ft per NEC. Any space more than 6 ft. between two fixed points needs expansion coupling. Make it less if wider temperature ranges are expected. And if the conduit location will never become submerged, it doesn't need those $50+ two-piece expansion couplings either. I've had good luck with Carlon or Cantex one-piece long series. Those short ones seem to easy to slide off the conduit. And for 100 degree change the manufacturer recommends one every 30 ft.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
But if somebody is too lazy to calculate, I figure 100 degree temp change for mentally calculating on those small odd jobs. That equals about 4 in. per 100 ft per NEC. Any space more than 6 ft. between two fixed points needs expansion coupling. Make it less if wider temperature ranges are expected. And if the conduit location will never become submerged, it doesn't need those $50+ two-piece expansion couplings either. I've had good luck with Carlon or Cantex one-piece long series. Those short ones seem to easy to slide off the conduit. And for 100 degree change the manufacturer recommends one every 30 ft.

I agree.
 
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