Relabel fixture max watt rating?

[knickelj]

Ladies and Gentleman,
Does anyone see a problem with removing the original label for a can light and replacing it with a new label with a lower maximum total watts? I would like to tap off of an existing branch circuit to feed 17 can lights in a long hallway (institutional theater lobby, drop ceiling). The intent is to lamp them with ~5 watt LED screw in lamps. That being said the total rating on the circuit would be 85 watts. The circuit has two convenience receptacles on it now. My contractor is telling me you can't do that. But, I don't remember seeing it in the NEC?

As one point of reference, we recently did an addition and when I pointed out the circuit rating was exceeded by the label of the combined fixtures on the circuit (75 W lamp max, but lamped with 60w) the fixture manufacturer came out and put some cheesy stickers over the factory ones that read "Max 60w lamp". I understand there is a difference between any old person making a cheesy label and the manufacturer/ engineer making a cheesy label, but would there be a violation involved?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

YOu contractor is right, you cannot relabel a listed product. And secondly,you cannot size your branch circuit to a certain lamp, it must be calculated so someone can put the max size lamps in every light without overloading the circuit.

 

[480sparky]

I doubt the NEC would allow it.

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

And that label most likely says max watts. He has complied. Perhaps get sticker from mfg to lower the max.

 

[knickelj]

YOu contractor is right, you cannot relabel a listed product. And secondly,you cannot size your branch circuit to a certain lamp, it must be calculated so someone can put the max size lamps in every light without overloading the circuit.

Don't we always size all our lighting for a certain lamp? 220.14(d). No different than the manufacturer using the R75 watt sticker/UL listing and some goof puts in a 200 watt a-19. We can only assume people will read the max lamp size. I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen table lamps with excessive lamps installed.
Wouldn't the new label be more than what the code is demanding? If I install a label that would say ?5 watt max lamp?, that is far exceeding the requirements of the ul listing (75 watts).

Just my line of thinking???

 

[petersonra]

YOu contractor is right, you cannot relabel a listed product. And secondly,you cannot size your branch circuit to a certain lamp, it must be calculated so someone can put the max size lamps in every light without overloading the circuit.

You can certainly put a label on a device giving additional information.

The lamp is the maximum wattage the fixture can handle, but nothing prevents you from deciding to use a lower wattage bulb, and labeling the fixture to indicate that.

I agree you can't size the BC for the lower wattage bulbs though.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

You can certainly put a label on a device giving additional information.

The lamp is the maximum wattage the fixture can handle, but nothing prevents you from deciding to use a lower wattage bulb, and labeling the fixture to indicate that.

I agree you can't size the BC for the lower wattage bulbs though.

It is impossible as YOU AS THE CONSUMER ,,,,,keyword consumer to relabel this fixture and comply with 410.35 (a)



And secondly you have to size the branch circuit to the max rating of the listed and factory marking that comply with 410.35 (a)and 410.70. It simply cannot be calculated to a certain bulb

 

[weressl]

You can certainly put a label on a device giving additional information.

The lamp is the maximum wattage the fixture can handle, but nothing prevents you from deciding to use a lower wattage bulb, and labeling the fixture to indicate that.

I agree you can't size the BC for the lower wattage bulbs though.

Logically you may be right, but I think putting a label on a device, not next to it, may have legal problems. You can certainly add circuit and feed locations or any other informative data, but other data that is part of the listing can not be altered. The difficulty with any additional tags and labels is that it may not be distinguishable form the listed data.

You do have the option of removing or covering the listing symbol and change and alter any data that is part of the listing as long as the AHJ concurs.

 

[steve66]

It seems like a lot of effort just to avoid running a new branch circuit.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

It seems like a lot of effort just to avoid running a new branch circuit.

I agree

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It seems like a lot of effort just to avoid running a new branch circuit.

That often is not as easy as saying. Your assuming there even is space available in panel.

Just what does this can say is MAX. ? Would you be over 2400 watts ?

 

[petersonra]

Logically you may be right, but I think putting a label on a device, not next to it, may have legal problems. You can certainly add circuit and feed locations or any other informative data, but other data that is part of the listing can not be altered. The difficulty with any additional tags and labels is that it may not be distinguishable form the listed data

I am not talking about putting a counterfeit or fake NRTL label on the thing. I am talking about a label that might say something like "Use 50W bulb - stock #XXXX".

It is impossible as YOU AS THE CONSUMER ,,,,,keyword consumer to relabel this fixture and comply with 410.35 (a)

I agree you cannot change the NRTL listing label. I do not agree that you cannot add a label giving additional information or instructions.

And secondly you have to size the branch circuit to the max rating of the listed and factory marking that comply with 410.35 (a)and 410.70. It simply cannot be calculated to a certain bulb

I seem to recall making that point myself.

 

[knickelj]

That often is not as easy as saying. Your assuming there even is space available in panel.

Just what does this can say is MAX. ? Would you be over 2400 watts ?

This was a separate issue. The total connected load would be two receptacles and 1250 watts lighting... what?s wrong with this.

There is space in the panel but as I am the "Customer" in a public building (our tax dollars) I'm not going to waste the money on a circuit that is really not needed or will ever be used to capacity. The can lights are to highlight artwork in the hallway outside the Theater. The hallway receptacle would normally be used for a vacuum. More than likely both would not be used at the same time.

 

[480sparky]

So why not use one for all the receptacles in a dwelling (kitchen, bath & laundry excluded) and put a label on each one that says "180 watts maximum load"?

 

[knickelj]

It is impossible as YOU AS THE CONSUMER ,,,,,keyword consumer to relabel this fixture and comply with 410.35 (a)



And secondly you have to size the branch circuit to the max rating of the listed and factory marking that comply with 410.35 (a)and 410.70. It simply cannot be calculated to a certain bulb

What code references are these ?08?? I thought it was ok to exceed the ul listing. In other words if UL states a 75 watt lamp in a fixture, by lowering the wattage you are exceeding ul and code requirements. I am not proposing to change the UL listing per say but under qualified supervision design the BC to only use screw in type LED lamp. 410.120

 

[TOOL_5150]

HO's dont care or look at those labels anyway.

~Matt

 

[knickelj]

Ever been to a job with a "bad" bath or hall fixture? Start to replace the fixture and remove the 150w lamp they had to grease to get it to fit in. The insulation behind the cheesy 10 cent fixture is black with a little yellow around the edges (was all yellow) and find the supply conductors so burnt the wire color is undistinguishable? The wire burnt OFF the socket. Point being if the factory sticker is supposed to "limit" the wattage of the lamp why would my sticker be any different?

 

[mcelweec@gmail.com]

wouldn't this be similar to installing a 400a switch with 250a fuses on 250a conductors?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

If they get stupid and install 75 watt lamps nothing will happen untill the receptacle is used. Then depending on load breaker might trip. Is no shock or fire hazard.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

This was a separate issue. The total connected load would be two receptacles and 1250 watts lighting... what?s wrong with this.

There is space in the panel but as I am the "Customer" in a public building (our tax dollars) I'm not going to waste the money on a circuit that is really not needed or will ever be used to capacity. The can lights are to highlight artwork in the hallway outside the Theater. The hallway receptacle would normally be used for a vacuum. More than likely both would not be used at the same time.

Wherever the switch is for these LED lights, make it a 3-way. Up is lights on. Down is receptacles work.

The receptacles aren't code required, right?