Removing Panel Cover

[pfalcon]

Oh I don't know ..... maybe a continuity tester?

Nice theory, but when you have a recurring fault that clears on power loss ...

 

[mxslick]

When you have some time, would you care to share the details of the experiences.

Great idea Lou, so to avoid a threadjack, let's go HERE.

 

[raider1]

There is an exception to that, If I remember correctly, Utah is the only state license that is considered a qualified person. Apparently they have additional testing.

There is nothing that I am aware of that states that a person that holds a Utah electrical license is considered a "Qualified Person".

Chris

 

[BTRAL]

I guess, i'm still kinda new to this. I noticed you stated you had to shut down from the pole! You also stated the Panel was a MDP, with no Main. My question to you is.....If it does not have a main Disconnect within reach or view of this said Panel, why didn't the Inspector call you on that, and make you install one? Just guessing, but isn't that against some code?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I guess, i'm still kinda new to this. I noticed you stated you had to shut down from the pole! You also stated the Panel was a MDP, with no Main. My question to you is.....If it does not have a main Disconnect within reach or view of this said Panel, why didn't the Inspector call you on that, and make you install one? Just guessing, but isn't that against some code?

There are many cases where the panel is not required to have a main breaker in it. I don't know of any case where a panel is required to have a disconnect within sight of it.

 

[Chamuit]

We had this issue come up on a job at a TV station. Facility Manager/Engineer had us either have a guy standing in front of the panel or we had to completely close it up.

I asked him, "Are the people around here that stupid?" He said, "Regulations. (and whispered) Yes."

 

[jimbo123]

I was reading the difinition of a QE on a previous post where it said the company makes you a QE and being a master electrician or having a j card etc has notting to t do with it. Nfpa 70e has classroom training and field training and I did think that our licensed ec were field trained already because of taking the NEC licensed test. If this isn't so does this mean that they have to be trained for such things as voltage testing and T/ S to do electrical work ? What would there limits be without fild training?

 

[quinn77]

nfpa 70 e requires level 4 ppe to open that cover, if energized, plus radius barriers established to protect personnel, both qualified and un-qualified.

 

[hillbilly1]

There is nothing that I am aware of that states that a person that holds a Utah electrical license is considered a "Qualified Person".

Chris

I was told this by the instructor of an Arc Flash class that I took earlier this year. I do not know were it says it, But this instructor appeared very knowledgable on the subject. The next time I see him, I'll see where he got his reference from, I'm pretty sure he said Utah. He said no other states license's qualified. I do not have a Utah license, so I do not know their requirements.

 

[zog]

I was told this by the instructor of an Arc Flash class that I took earlier this year. I do not know were it says it, But this instructor appeared very knowledgable on the subject. The next time I see him, I'll see where he got his reference from, I'm pretty sure he said Utah. He said no other states license's qualified. I do not have a Utah license, so I do not know their requirements.

Get the reference, would be news to me.

 

[cschmid]

do you ever feel that some of these regulations are over the top? just because a accident happens (an unintended happening) that we go over the top because a lawyer happened by and did semantics and won against an employer who was semi neglectful means we all have to suffer financial loss and if you do not believe we have where are all our jobs..

So you need to have hot gloves to switch a lighting breaker rated for switch duty in a 277 panel that is in an enclosed panel..You do not think that is kind of over the top..you do not feel it is more awkward to work in a panel with gloves and a shield and long sleeve shirts where you become more encumbered to do the job which increases the likely hood of an incident, in panels never designed for this kind of working space..I sometimes do not understand why we need all these regulations have we as a society failed..Because no one wants to be responsible for their own actions..

Last time I checked I took every reasonable precaution to be safe. Last time I was in the arc flash gear (monkey suite) I actually felt more unsure as I felt clumsy in the gear and was way more stressed out when I was down. How does that make me feel safer..i know they are trying to protect me from bad things but why do I feel so unsafe when I am in the suite..

 

[mxslick]

do you ever feel that some of these regulations are over the top? just because a accident happens (an unintended happening) that we go over the top because a lawyer happened by and did semantics and won against an employer who was semi neglectful means we all have to suffer financial loss and if you do not believe we have where are all our jobs..

So you need to have hot gloves to switch a lighting breaker rated for switch duty in a 277 panel that is in an enclosed panel..You do not think that is kind of over the top..you do not feel it is more awkward to work in a panel with gloves and a shield and long sleeve shirts where you become more encumbered to do the job which increases the likely hood of an incident, in panels never designed for this kind of working space..I sometimes do not understand why we need all these regulations have we as a society failed..Because no one wants to be responsible for their own actions..

Last time I checked I took every reasonable precaution to be safe. Last time I was in the arc flash gear (monkey suite) I actually felt more unsure as I felt clumsy in the gear and was way more stressed out when I was down. How does that make me feel safer..i know they are trying to protect me from bad things but why do I feel so unsafe when I am in the suite..

(Bolds added by me)

Thank you for this post, what a refreshing thing to see someone realizing the true nature of the situation!!

In cinema work, when changing a pressurized Xenon arc lamp, we are supposed to wear a ballistic jacket, face shield and heavy leather gloves. The face shield poses no problem, but the jacket and gloves so severely restrict movement and the gloves cause loss of sure grip, that many techs have had bulbs explode because they couldn't maneuver them into the lamphouse properly. I have had two explosions due to that problem myself. I changed to wearing the faceshield, long sleeve shirt and no gloves (though recently I started using the "Mechanix" brand gloves as they are strong yet thin and have sure grip) and have done literally thousands of lamp changeouts without even tapping the bulb against the reflector.

I am all for safety and the use of PPE, BUT when the PPE creates MORE hazards due to restriction of movement, dexterity or vision then it obviously needs to be re-evaluated.

I have noticed that most Xenon bulb manufacturers have revised their PPE requirements so at least one industry is willing to listen to field experience and adjust accordingly.

 

[cpal]

We had this issue come up on a job at a TV station. Facility Manager/Engineer had us either have a guy standing in front of the panel or we had to completely close it up.

I asked him, "Are the people around here that stupid?" He said, "Regulations. (and whispered) Yes."

The Manager was performing a usefull service to you and your company
Leaving an energized panel un-attended could be viewed as a willfull offense with the fines trippled. OSHA assumes all is correct untill an incident occurs. 70 E also addresses the need to guard exposed energized parts from unqualified persons. Did you have an energized work permit???

 

[mxslick]

The Manager was performing a usefull service to you and your company
Leaving an energized panel un-attended could be viewed as a willfull offense with the fines trippled. OSHA assumes all is correct untill an incident occurs. 70 E also addresses the need to guard exposed energized parts from unqualified persons. Did you have an energized work permit???

Now THAT I agree with 100%.. (and the manager's honesty in that people ARE that stupid Even with someone standing by there will always be someone who'll wlak right up and have to be restrained from getting too close. Seen it lots of times personally.

Seems like anyone who sees an open panel just has to poke around inside.

 

[big john]

...Facility Manager/Engineer had us either have a guy standing in front of the panel or we had to completely close it up.

I asked him, "Are the people around here that stupid?" He said, "Regulations. (and whispered) Yes."

Yeah, without a doubt I can attest to that. We had a job where we had to open a floor plate to have a crane lower something down into the basement. If you fell down the hole, it would be an 85 foot drop to the gound. We put barricades all around the hole and then barricaded off the only set of steps leading down to the edge of the hole.

We leave, and come back and some dummy had climbed over the barricade to come down the stairs, climbed over the barricades around the hole, and was standing there on the edge looking down into it. Really, buddy? Really? You've gotta protect people from themselves.

Safety gear can definitely be uncomfortable, but any smart company will take the necessary steps to make it as user-friendly as possible. If your hot-gloves aren't custom fit for your hands, they're hard to work in, and guys aren't likely to wear them.

If you don't have ventillation blowers for your flash suits they're hot to work in and the face plate fogs up.

I've worn a 40 cal. suit in a 97 degree power plant. I was so incredibly uncomfortable I'm sure I was working much less safely just to get the job done faster so I could get the heck out of the suit.

...So you need to have hot gloves to switch a lighting breaker rated for switch duty in a 277 panel that is in an enclosed panel..You do not think that is kind of over the top....

To be fair, that is over the top because I'm not aware of anything that says you have to have on any PPE other than non-melting cotton clothing and safety glasses when switching a molded case breaker with the panel cover closed.

-John

 

[zog]

Safety gear is not uncomfortable. Skin grafts, those are uncomfortable.

 

[cschmid]

Safety gear is not uncomfortable. Skin grafts, those are uncomfortable.

been in arc flash incident, I guess my point is not only is the gear award it is expensive and if they are going to force use to use it then can they at least make it affordable and size it correctly so you can stand to be in it. like what caliber protection is a leather welding jacket? what not rated for electrical work? welders are exposed to arcs all day long. just trying to get at some of the real issues with compliance. costs are increasing and things are changing but in the mean time the manufactures are not on board as the panels are tight and make it award to work in with arc flash gear.

 

[zog]

Proper sizing and selection of the correct PPE is vital to making it easy to work in. People often use way too much PPE becasue they do not understand how to select the right stuff, they just throw on the 40cal suit.

Howver, times when you use PPE should be limited, the first option is always to de-energize. Tasks that require PPE should be limited to things that only take a few minutes, like verifing absense of voltage.

 

[quinn77]

Safety gear is not uncomfortable. Skin grafts, those are uncomfortable.

thank you zog...last tuesday my friend/co-worker and I were LOOKING ( no tools ) into a 480/277 1000 amp fused buss cab when he slipped and fell into the live parts, went into a siezure inside the cabinet ( me and the elec. inspector pulled him out) he was then life-flighted to a hospital 60 miles away. he might not be able to work ever again due to major complications. he is only 28 yrs old with kids and a family. this WOULD NOT have happened if our company followed strict NFPA 70E reg's. my boss is getting slapped with 50,000 in fines from osha, bad press in papers, and is now developing a strict safety program that i am building. ive been a 3rd gen electrician for 14 years with no severe/ recordable accidents, and was taught proper safety techniques, but in the last 3 years ive witnessed 2 fatallities, and then this. all of these incidents WOULD NOT have happened if the proper steps ( i.e. bulky UNCOMFORTABLE PPE, time consuming LOTO and paperwork, etc) hands down PPE is worth the time, and sacrifice...PERIOD! and by the way, who said you had to have flash gear on to operate 480 volt breakers and switches with covers on....NFPA 70E classifies it as cat 0, with long sleeve natural fiber shirt, pants, and leather gloves RECOMMENDED...sounds pretty comfy to me, unless you work in a muscle shirt, cut-off shorts, and flip flops.

 

[zog]

Sorry to hear that, hopefully someone else can learn from your companies misfortune. I would betg my paycheck both of those guys never thought something like that would happen to them. No one ever does, but it happens everday in our field, and most of them could easily be prevented.