Required Receptacle Locations

[Jim W in Tampa]

It says ANY space. Many things are walls without intending to be one. Fixed glass doors or windows that go from floor to ceiling are walls. But i will not get out of installing a receptacle to cover this space by telling the inspector it is a window not a wall.
NEC does not care that it is too hard to install. That is part of the design work to not create a problem you can't fix. If you dont care to frame it then mount box and run EMT. Where in nec does it say we can ignore a space because its purpose was not to be a wall ? We have many places like behind a bedroom door that are useless to most but still a wall. How it is constructed has nothing to do with it. OP in my opinion has a small wall like it or not. I see it as a wall even if it is round. 24 inches was selected by NEC and it says around corners because it did not want us to call this 4 seven inch walls.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Maybe you do. Some electricians don't know the difference.

RIP common sense. :roll:

And a window from floor to ceiling is not a wall ? You need to understand that manythings are not just one thing ,often they are severall and one of them is a wall.
Your right some electrician don't know the difference.

 

[infinity]

And a window from floor to ceiling is not a wall ? You need to understand that manythings are not just one thing ,often they are severall and one of them is a wall.
Your right some electrician don't know the difference.

True but the NEC wording does spell out the things you mentioned. Would an 8"X8" square steel support column require a receptacle too?

 

[Howard Burger]

Does 210.52's 'around corners' include outside corners, or just inside corners? I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but somethimes the code is written in a manner that encourages this.

And btw, I would put a recep. on the column because of it's distance from the walls to avoid possibilitiy of a lamp cord or such tripping someone.

 

[SEO]

True but the NEC wording does spell out the things you mentioned. Would an 8"X8" square steel support column require a receptacle too?

Per the way wall space is defined you would. You don't see this very often in residental but it could happen.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Does 210.52's 'around corners' include outside corners, or just inside corners? I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but somethimes the code is written in a manner that encourages this.

And btw, I would put a recep. on the column because of it's distance from the walls to avoid possibilitiy of a lamp cord or such tripping someone.

Yes all corners. Think of houses that often have both. Being NEC only said corners we must apply it both.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

True but the NEC wording does spell out the things you mentioned. Would an 8"X8" square steel support column require a receptacle too?

Why would it not be included ? No reason you could not mount 1 on it.
I don't understand why some here think there is a differance between an intentional post and one that is there because of structural need. They both are usable.
NEC was trying to stop the use of extention cords.

 

[JFletcher]

The way I see it, a 7" x 7" wide column is 7" wide, not 28" - I'm measuring width, not perimeter - therefore no outlet needed, even if it is considered a wall. If I had an inside corner with 9" between door frames on each side, I wouldn't need an outlet. If that 7" x7" column was installed in that 9" corner, it wouldn't need an outlet.

Bob's 24" square plumbing chase would - it is a space 24" or more and not broken by the floor line by any openings. It would need one outlet, not two.

Let's say there is a 40" wide floor-to-ceiling partition in the middle of the room. It would require an outlet. If there was a 30" wide door in the middle of it, it wouldn't.

 

[infinity]

Per the way wall space is defined you would. You don't see this very often in residental but it could happen.

Why would it not be included ? No reason you could not mount 1 on it.
I don't understand why some here think there is a differance between an intentional post and one that is there because of structural need. They both are usable.
NEC was trying to stop the use of extention cords.

OK, I must be nuts. Now we're saying that an 8"X 8" square steel column is a wall? It's not a wall a a structural support for the building.

 

[SEO]

I think part of the problem is what is wall space? The code doesn't say that wall space is an actual wall. It's just saying that a space of that size requires a receptacle.

 

[charlie b]

It says ANY space.

It doesn't say "ANY space" until after it says "Wall Space." It is, first and foremost, talking about walls. There are certain specific things that are to be included in the measurement for receptacles. "Fixed panels" is one of them, and "fixed room dividers" is another. They don't name windows, and they don't name columns. I think that if there really were a floor to ceiling window, then it would fall into the category of a fixed panel.

But since a column is not a wall, and it is not explicitly named in the list of things that are included in the measurement, then I submit that the NEC does not require receptacles at a column. Good idea to have one? Yes. Required? No.

You don't put receptacles on something just because that something is not a floor. Put a rug on a floor, then tell me you have to start measuring the rug along the floor line to see if it needs a receptacle!

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

OK, I must be nuts. Now we're saying that an 8"X 8" square steel column is a wall? It's not a wall a a structural support for the building.

I think it is BOTH. What is differant from it and a intended post of same size and location ?
True it was not wanted but fact is it is there. This is a space and has a floor line.

Issues like this create unfair bidding. The EC that includes it will be higher than the others. Now if we know the inspector will pass without it then great. What happens if a HI catches it on the sale ? Could turn nasty fast.
Wish we had a pole created for this one. As always we have differant opinions. NEC is clear as mud

 

[mcclary's electrical]

And I agree with all those statements.

But I do not think it address the OPs question.:grin:



If he has 7" X 7" square column he does not need a receptacle.

If he has a 3" round column wrapped with a 7" x 7" wall he needs a receptacle.

This makes perfect sense, and I think this pretty much sums it up.

 

[infinity]

It doesn't say "ANY space" until after it says "Wall Space." It is, first and foremost, talking about walls. There are certain specific things that are to be included in the measurement for receptacles. "Fixed panels" is one of them, and "fixed room dividers" is another. They don't name windows, and they don't name columns. I think that if there really were a floor to ceiling window, then it would fall into the category of a fixed panel.

But since a column is not a wall, and it is not explicitly named in the list of things that are included in the measurement, then I submit that the NEC does not require receptacles at a column. Good idea to have one? Yes. Required? No.

I agree with Charlie 100%. Although it may seem logical to require one the words in the NEC do not exist to do so.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The NEC does not say STRAIGHT wall space, it says ANY wall space greater than 2ft.

The designers of the installation have to know more of the codes they are responsible for. This may mean locating lolly columns so that they do not create an issue when they are enclosed.

I think this is pretty simple, wall space is wall space, if you want to get fancy and call them pilasters, so be, but it is still a wall space.
I have seen time and time againg small tables placed against the columns with lamps...hmm.
I have seen couchs with end tables placed up to these same columns.

This sounds like a good place for a proposal to see what the CMPs think of this.

P.S.
I love when someone says this is not what the CMPs are thinking...Unless one speaks to them, how does one really know what they are thinking???

 

[realolman]

It doesn't become a wall space until it is framed out as a wall.

I mentioned log and cement block walls in reference to this statement. Where does it say anything about framing or type of construction?


(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings

I think a pilaster would absolutely be wall space, and I fail to see the difference re: unbroken floor line along a 7 X 7" "framed in thing" or a 7 X 7" post.

How about a 16 x 16 cement block or brick column? 24 x 24 ?


Please point out what type of construction is excluded by the phrase "any space":


... a few people just said " any space" of a minimum dimension is what it says..... and it appears to me that that is exactly what it says ... with no exceptions provided for columns of any construction

 

[LarryFine]

Wish we had a pole created for this one.

You mean a poll? As in a pole poll?

 

[charlie b]

Please point out what type of construction is excluded by the phrase "any space":

Easy. Any type that does not begin its existence as a wall. Look at the first two words in the title of the article in question. It says, "wall space." No. Look only at the first word in the title. It says, "wall." Absolutely everything that is not a wall is excluded, until you get to the very short list of "things that are not walls that are included anyway." OK. Those things are not walls. But we count them in our wall space, because the book says to. But why are you adding anything else that is not a wall, and that is not on the list, to the stuff that has to be measured and included? :-?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Sometimes the issue is as simple as people will twist the english language to have the meaning of whatever, suit themselves. It all sounds good within one's own mind.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

And I agree with all those statements.

But I do not think it address the OPs question.:grin:



If he has 7" X 7" square column he does not need a receptacle.

If he has a 3" round column wrapped with a 7" x 7" wall he needs a receptacle.

Curious as to why you think 2 items same dimention are not the same. So i can put a table and lamp next to the wraped colum but not a column that is exact same size ????