Residential PVC at Panel for home runs

[luckylerado]

Do I need to install a connector and bushing on the end of these 2" PVC stubs? I am dressing this panel this evening for a friend and I have not touched a piece of Romex in a very long time.

 

[iwire]

If you are planing on dropping those NMs down those PVCs you have an NEC violation or two. The red ones are the items I see as definite problems others would have to be complied with if you continue.

The exception to 312.5

Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall
be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure
through one or more nonflexible raceways not less
than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in
length, provided all of the following conditions are met:

(a) Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.),
measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.

(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure
and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.


(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to
protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain
accessible after installation.

(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end
using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure
through the raceway.

(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway
and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not
less than 6 mm (1⁄4 in.).

(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at
other points in accordance with the applicable article.

(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable
cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit
or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code
and all applicable notes thereto.

 

[mbrooke]

Arent those missing knock outs also an issue?

 

[luckylerado]

I have a fix for the KO plugs.

Talked to they guy I am helping. He said they drop romex into panels this way all over the county with no issues from AHJ.

I do not have any skin in this one. I am just a helper bee. I do not feel it will be unsafe to Mrs. Homeowner so I will not tell him I cannot lace the panel for him. I will grab a couple connectors on my way over there. Just trying to give him a shot in the arm to make the drywall deadline.

Thanks

 

[iwire]

I have a fix for the KO plugs.

All I see are mounting holes and those do not require closing.

Talked to they guy I am helping. He said they drop romex into panels this way all over the county with no issues from AHJ.

For sure allowed in some areas but not 'all over' the country. Without local amendments it is an NEC violation.

I do not have any skin in this one. I am just a helper bee. I do not feel it will be unsafe to Mrs. Homeowner so I will not tell him I cannot lace the panel for him. I will grab a couple connectors on my way over there. Just trying to give him a shot in the arm to make the drywall deadline.

Thanks

I don't have any skin in this either, just letting you know the NEC requirements.

If it was me I would bring them all into the top of the panel using plastic duplex connectors.

 

[pjholguin]

All I see are mounting holes and those do not require closing.

Look at the top of the panel where the 2" is KOed; There are a few 1/2" KOs that were knocked out when they KOed for the 2".:slaphead:

 

[user 100]

Look at the top of the panel where the 2" is KOed; There are a few 1/2" KOs that were knocked out when they KOed for the 2".:slaphead:

I see those too and they really don't need to be left that way either-they need seals. I've always tried to never leave any opening like that on the top of a panel-think of gravity, and whatever could fall in those ko's is getting in that panel.

 

[mbrooke]

All I see are mounting holes and those do not require closing.

Where the PVC enters to the left and rights sides. I know you doubt me

 

[mjf]

OP said they do this all over the COUNTY, not COUNTRY with no hassle from the AHJ.

Not saying that makes it code compliant.

I know when I visited an old friend (plumber) down in Memphis a few years back his house was the same way and I pointed out that it was a violation.

he said on all the new construction houses he plumbed that is how all the electricians came into panels.

 

[luckylerado]

I appreciate all the input. I 100% acknowledge and agree that this is in violation now that I see 312.5 Fortunately for my buddy, this is in an area that is notoriously lax on enforcement. If I felt it would pose a safety issue, I would insist that it be changed or I would not be involved. I am just trying to be helpful without taking over. I will bet that when I get there, I will find more things that are not compliant but I was not asked to do an inspection just to give a few hours of my time. My world has been commercial for quite some time now.

Its all about the free burgers.

 

[buzzbar]

Why would you ask for advice if you knew how you were going to do it in the first place?

That being said, I would at least put a bell end on the ends of the PVC, and fill the openings with foam after all of the NM cables are in place.

 

[luckylerado]

Why would you ask for advice if you knew how you were going to do it in the first place?

That being said, I would at least put a bell end on the ends of the PVC, and fill the openings with foam after all of the NM cables are in place.

I figured the 2" was compliant. I just wanted to know if it needed connectors and bushings.

 

[John120/240]

If it was me I would use T & B #3201 for 1/2 KO or T & B #3202 for 3/4 KO

 

[user 100]

If it was me I would use T & B #3201 for 1/2 KO or T & B #3202 for 3/4 KO

I agree. People aren't kidding when they say that a lot of times nm is bundled in pvc nowadays-I don't care, it's still a code violation barring ahj. Of course the pendulum can swing in the other direction-you have those guys who use the connectors and know absolutely nothing about derating and will put no more than one nm per 3/4 hole and will end up turning the plate into swiss cheese.

 

[augie47]

In this world of litigation, those burgers may end up not being free.
Just say a few years down the road there is a fire... a knowledgeable fire investigator becomes involved via an insurancd company wanting to find a reason not to cover the costs.
Humm Code violation... "Well, we had a master electrician install that"........

No good deed goes unpunished and there is no such thing as a free burger

 

[DrSparks]

In this world of litigation, those burgers may end up not being free.
Just say a few years down the road there is a fire... a knowledgeable fire investigator becomes involved via an insurancd company wanting to find a reason not to cover the costs.
Humm Code violation... "Well, we had a master electrician install that"........

No good deed goes unpunished and there is no such thing as a free burger

huh? lol

 

[DrSparks]

It's perfectly acceptable to sleeve Romex in 2" PVC. I do it all the time. A bushing is not required as it's PVC, not metal, but you do need to fasten all the cables within 12" of the pipe opening and the pipe should be under 2' long to maintain nipple status (for wire fill requirements). Also, you should put duct seal in the pipe opening when you're finished to prevent foreign materials from entering the panel (namely metal foreign materials). Some ECs stuff fiberglass insulation but this has been outlawed in my jurisdiction. One thing I should mention though that since this panel is recessed, not surface mounted, sleeving is completely unnecessary, but it does make pulling a future circuit from an accessible location easier. Typically, I nail in a piece of 2x4 blocking above and below the panel to strap my rope to.

 

[iwire]

To start, let me make clear I know in many areas they allow the things I point out are NEC violations. That does not change the fact they are still NEC violtions

It's perfectly acceptable to sleeve Romex in 2" PVC.

It depends on how you do it.

As pictured in the opening post it is without a doubt an NEC violation.

A bushing is not required as it's PVC, not metal,

That is false

This first section is about PVC entering enclosures

352.46 Bushings. Where a conduit enters a box, fitting, or
other enclosure, a bushing or adapter shall be provided to
protect the wire from abrasion unless the box, fitting, or
enclosure design provides equivalent protection.

This next section is specific to sleeving NM at a panelboard.

Part of 312.5(C) exception

(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to
protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain
accessible after installation.

You can't just have a raw end of PVC where the NMs go into it.

but you do need to fasten all the cables within 12" of the pipe opening

I agree.

Part of 312.5(C) exception

(a) Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.),
measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.

the pipe should be under 2' long to maintain nipple status (for wire fill requirements).

That is a choice, not a requirement, the NEC allows 18" to 10'.


Part of 312.5(C) exception

through one or more nonflexible raceways not less
than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in
length

Also, you should put duct seal in the pipe opening when you're finished to prevent foreign materials from entering the panel (namely metal foreign materials).

I agree

Part of 312.5(C) exception

(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end
using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure
through the raceway.

Some ECs stuff fiberglass insulation but this has been outlawed in my jurisdiction.

Outlawed? Perhaps just not approved.

One thing I should mention though that since this panel is recessed, not surface mounted, sleeving is completely unnecessary,

The fact that this panel is recessed is one of the reasons it is an NEC violation

Part of 312.5(C) exception

Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall
be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure
through one or more nonflexible raceways

.

but it does make pulling a future circuit from an accessible location easier.

The NEC requires the end of these sleeves to be accessible.

Part of 312.5(C) exception

(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to
protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain
accessible after installation.

 

[augie47]

To quote RR, "There you go again" ! Messed up a perfectly good post (#17) with facts.
Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.

 

[DrSparks]

To start, let me make clear I know in many areas they allow the things I point out are NEC violations. That does not change the fact they are still NEC violtions



It depends on how you do it.

As pictured in the opening post it is without a doubt an NEC violation.



That is false

This first section is about PVC entering enclosures



This next section is specific to sleeving NM at a panelboard.

Part of 312.5(C) exception


You can't just have a raw end of PVC where the NMs go into it.







I agree.

Part of 312.5(C) exception







That is a choice, not a requirement, the NEC allows 18" to 10'.


Part of 312.5(C) exception







I agree

Part of 312.5(C) exception







Outlawed? Perhaps just not approved.





The fact that this panel is recessed is one of the reasons it is an NEC violation

Part of 312.5(C) exception
.






The NEC requires the end of these sleeves to be accessible.

Part of 312.5(C) exception

I don't have time to quote each of your statements individually as I have a hot date tonight But I will address a few issues:

1. The PVC sleeves appear to be extending through to top plate and into the attic, which I would presume to be an accessible location.
2. As for the 2' bit, I was referring to chapter 9, note 4 which allows 60% fill in a run under 24".
3. It can be debated that a deburred end of PVC pipe is not abrasive enough to tear into the NMs overall jacket. It poses no hazard whatsoever

And yeah, that's about it. Ok, off to the movies!