Rural Service and Subpanel

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T-Wragg

Senior Member
Location
Paradise, California, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I was called out recently to a rural property (house built in 1974) where the main service is mounted on a pole near the well pump. From the service equipment a three wire feeder in rigid conduit is run to a sub-panel at the house. At the house a ufer ground was installed in the foundation. The ufer ground and the grounded conductor of the feeder terminate on the neutral buss bar, as do all the circuit grounded conductors and equipment grounding conductors. This against what I understand to be correct. The house was built in 1974. Was this a code compliant installation in 1974? Thank you, Trent
 
J

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
Yes in 1974 your install was legal & still is. Todays code would require 4 wire: two hot conductors, Grounded conductor (white), Grounding conductor (bare or green)
 
tkb

tkb

Senior Member
Location
MA
John120/240 said:
Yes in 1974 your install was legal & still is. Todays code would require 4 wire: two hot conductors, Grounded conductor (white), Grounding conductor (bare or green)
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Still compliant without the grounding conductor since it was done in rigid steel conduit.
 
M

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
What if the main disconnect is located at "the main service is mounted on a pole near the well pump"?
Wouldn't the ground and neutral be seperate until that point? In the OP they are bonded together in the sub panel.
Thanks
Mike
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The requirement for separate grounded and equipment grounding conductors to separate structures has only been in NEC since 2008 ( I think - possibly 2005), however separate conductors has been required even longer then that when there are other conductive paths between the structures (GRC feeder raceway would make a difference here) but I don't know when that wording was added. I though maybe about 1990 to 1996 - but could be wrong.
 
tom baker

tom baker

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Location
Bremerton, Washington
kwired said:
The requirement for separate grounded and equipment grounding conductors to separate structures has only been in NEC since 2008 ( I think - possibly 2005), however separate conductors has been required even longer then that when there are other conductive paths between the structures (GRC feeder raceway would make a difference here) but I don't know when that wording was added. I though maybe about 1990 to 1996 - but could be wrong.
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Actually it was 2002 NEC, if parallel paths existed the neutral and ground were separate.
 
Cavie

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
t-bird said:
I was called out recently to a rural property (house built in 1974) where the main service is mounted on a pole near the well pump. From the service equipment a three wire feeder in rigid conduit is run to a sub-panel at the house. At the house a ufer ground was installed in the foundation. The ufer ground and the grounded conductor of the feeder terminate on the neutral buss bar, as do all the circuit grounded conductors and equipment grounding conductors. This against what I understand to be correct. The house was built in 1974. Was this a code compliant installation in 1974? Thank you, Trent
Click to expand...

I don't believe UFER ground was around in '74. could be wrong.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Cavie said:
Wasn't used here till 2002.
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My understanding was it always was intention of CMP was to use CEE if it was there, but by the time 2002 code changes were in process they realized because of the way it was worded that it wasn't being used all that often. Before then it said something to the effect that if the reinforcement bars in the footings were not accessible that it didn't need to be used - electricians are almost never on site at that time when they are easily accessible, and by the time they are on site it is no longer accessible, because of that they were not getting CEE's hooked up and were not really in violation of anything either. Many never knew what a CEE was either since they never had to use one because of how it always worked out.
 
P

pkhanan

Member
Location
Grass Valley, CA.
General contractor

General contractor

So, by current code with same conditions (sub panel with Ufer ground) but PVC and four wires back to service, the grounding and grounded wires remain separated at the subpanel?
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If you have galvanized pipe run then you could use the conduit as an equipment grounding conductor and separate your neutrals and equipment grounding conductor. Section 344.60 allows the RMC to be an equipment grounding conductor as stated by TKB
 
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jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
That is if you trust that the Rigid underground conduit is not rotted into pieces by now. I put rigid between my house and garage in 1994. Dug it up the other day and it was completely rusted through.

JAP>
 
ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
jap said:
That is if you trust that the Rigid underground conduit is not rotted into pieces by now. I put rigid between my house and garage in 1994. Dug it up the other day and it was completely rusted through.

JAP>
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THW, THWN, TW, A lot of it buried where the conduit is gone. I did a gas station back when dirt was new and when we went in again the wires were all laying in the sand with rust stains where the conduit had been.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
unless you have really corrosive conditions, usually the biggest problem with rusty conduit is in the top few inches of soil that do get some air.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
kwired said:
unless you have really corrosive conditions, usually the biggest problem with rusty conduit is in the top few inches of soil that do get some air.
Click to expand...

For sure the transition area is problematic.

But many of us do live in areas with high PH. My guess is you are just outside that area.

t_LTA20080214a.jpg
 
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