Sub Panel in Attic

[Cletis]

Can I run a 6/3 SER on a 50 amp 2 pole breaker from the main distribution panel, up the side of house and into the attic and set a main lug sub panel to run future branch circuits down to 2nd floor areas/items???

Permanent pull down ladder to attic

3/4 of attic has nice planks laid down (easy to walk around)

Plenty of headspace and accessability (3x3x6 yes)

Light on pull chain already there

Attic will never be finished for habitation

Single family dwelling

2014 code here

Thanks in advance

 

[Cletis]

Isn't anyone going to tackle this one ?

 

[augie47]

You probably can.
The only things you have stated so far that would be a problem would be 210.70(A)(3) and you did not mention if the SER would be run in insulation. If so, and it;s AL SER, the ampacity drops to 40 amps.

(edit to mention insulation)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You probably can.
The only things you have stated so far that would be a problem would be 210.70(A)(3) and you did not mention if the SER would be run in insulation. If so, and it;s AL SER, the ampacity drops to 40 amps.

(edit to mention insulation)

Unless he his using copper SER which is pretty available around here

 

[ptonsparky]

Summer time ambient might cause grief. It would here.

 

[GerryB]

I like to run 6-3 nm for a sub panel so it is 60amps. If outdoors and a straight shot up I sleeve it with 1" PVC and LB's. Unfinished attic I would think you just nail it under the rafters. (haven't seen copper seu or ser in quite a while. Depot used to sell it because HO's didn't know how to size their service. The #2 seu (or equivalent) copper was $6.00 a foot, years ago!

 

[kwired]

I like to run 6-3 nm for a sub panel so it is 60amps. If outdoors and a straight shot up I sleeve it with 1" PVC and LB's. Unfinished attic I would think you just nail it under the rafters. (haven't seen copper seu or ser in quite a while. Depot used to sell it because HO's didn't know how to size their service. The #2 seu (or equivalent) copper was $6.00 a foot, years ago!

Different mentality depending on what kind of work one usually does - I probably am running EMT mostly because I already have the EMT and some 6 THHN/THWN on hand most of the time, so why bother trying to round up some SE cable? I probably use the raceway as the EGC most cases - this probably also allows to use only 3/4 EMT and an 8 AWG neutral will get pulled in most instances - again because I likely already have that on hand. Only time I would have SE cable in my possession is if I specifically ordered some for a particular job, otherwise it just would sit on the shelf and collect dust - that is not normally considered profitable.

I try to stay out of residential work anymore - not that I don't do some, but I don't go looking for it anymore, it comes to me and I pick and choose which jobs I am willing to do, I let the newer EC's learn about the kind of customers you find in the residential market and continue to keep the commercial and industrial customers happy, after all I was there once myself now it is their turn:happyyes:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Summer time ambient might cause grief. It would here.

I have done this in NC and never had an issue with it. As long as it is accessible and meets the clearances. My concern is a pull down attic. Generally one needs a tool or something to get the stairs down so IMO, it is not readily accessible. The ones I have done had permanent stairs

 

[augie47]

I have done this in NC and never had an issue with it. As long as it is accessible and meets the clearances. My concern is a pull down attic. Generally one needs a tool or something to get the stairs down so IMO, it is not readily accessible. The ones I have done had permanent stairs

Dennis: I'm going to take on the devils advocate role as I often do just for discussions sake.
(a) do "readily accessible" mention a "tool" ?
(b) If I can place my OCP devices behind a locked door where I must find a key is that much different than pulling down a set of stairs ?

I fear its going to be an AHJ call.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis: I'm going to take on the devils advocate role as I often do just for discussions sake.
(a) do "readily accessible" mention a "tool" ?
(b) If I can place my OCP devices behind a locked door where I must find a key is that much different than pulling down a set of stairs ?

I fear its going to be an AHJ call.

I know we are behind the 8 ball on the 2014 NEC but yes it does mention tool.

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of beingreached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove
obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Besides that most people don't have the tool and need a chair or something to reach it so IMO it is a violation in either case

 

[electricalist]

If the added circuits are 9 or less. I would want to put the sub panel at the lower level beside the main panel or outside then 3/4 up to the attic with my 9circuits to a j box and leave until ready.
Attic work is lame especially trying to make up a panel or when they call you to get in the attic and reset a breaker.

 

[kwired]

I still have problems with the readily accessible definition - it has been deemed acceptable in the past to have some equipment behind locked doors, yet isn't a key to open the lock a tool that is required to gain access? The key is the easiest tool anyway, otherwise you usually need to resort to more complex or destructive tools to gain access.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The HO may be young today, however when they get older they are not going to want to climb into the attic to reset a breaker. Especially if they have a frequent trip due to a AFCI!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I still have problems with the readily accessible definition - it has been deemed acceptable in the past to have some equipment behind locked doors, yet isn't a key to open the lock a tool that is required to gain access? The key is the easiest tool anyway, otherwise you usually need to resort to more complex or destructive tools to gain access.

This has always been a problem. I have seen transfer switches that are service rated that had screws on the cover. The only access to the breakers was to remove the cover with a screwdriver.

 

[Cletis]

Ok. So, it looks like the ladder is in question. This ladder has a string/rope hanging you just grab and pull. The owner actually wants the sub panel in attic. So, I guess i'm good because a rope is not a "tool" I guess

 

[Carultch]

Ok. So, it looks like the ladder is in question. This ladder has a string/rope hanging you just grab and pull. The owner actually wants the sub panel in attic. So, I guess i'm good because a rope is not a "tool" I guess

I think if you have to go get something in order to access it, then that "something" counts as a tool. The only exception is keys.

Needing to go get a portable ladder, that counts as a tool.
Needing to go get a chair, that counts as a tool.
Needing to go get a hook stick to pull open a high attic latch, that counts as a tool.

Using a rope that is permanently installed on the attic hatch, that isn't a tool.
Using a permanently installed ladder, that isn't a tool.

While technically these would be tools the way an anthropologist looks at it, they are an integral part of the constructed access path. You can get through them while having only the clothes on your back.

 

[electricalist]

This is one of those situations where if the installer and the customer agree on the location and accessibility then the inspector will pass it.
If the code was stated any other way. Somebody would sue because something happened to a too readily accessible whatever because it was too accessible.
As long as the disconnecting means for the whole service is accessible for a fire dept etc. Then in a house accessible should be up to the homeowner

 

[Buck Parrish]

What about the height? Isn't there a height requirement where the panel is located?

 

[GerryB]

What about the height? Isn't there a height requirement where the panel is located?

I've worked on panels in crawl spaces, same thing, work on your knees.