TESLA VS. EDISON

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Easier to DIE when shocked by high voltage DC vs AC.

DC might generate more heat at higher voltages, hence, voltage drop across wires.

Edison did have more money behind his operations, yet he had to allow others to get rich.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
On a similiar note; Consider The Old Time Threshers Reunion in Mt Pleasant, Iowa. Labor Day

weekend. They feature all manner of steam engines. I enjoy the stationary engine display.

Steam powered electric plants, steam water pumps etc. Also, locomotives generate electricity

in one form A C or D C don't know which & change to the other to use in traction motors.

Why change ?
 

G0049

Senior Member
Location
Ludington, MI
Caution!

Caution!

...NOW, I am told...

Just don't drive yourself crazy trying to justify or refute 100 year old decisions based on today's knowledge base. And, just like now, it isn't always the best man, or the man with the best idea, that wins, it's usually the best salesman or the man with the best placed friends.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I don't believe that is true when tested over time.

If DC was truly better, that is the system that we would have now. It isn't and we don't.
Actually we do. HVDC transmission is used for long distance transmission. If it wasn't superior to AC for this purpose it wouldn't be used for it. But it is, and we do.
 

Twoskinsoneman

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West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
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Actually we do. HVDC transmission is used for long distance transmission. If it wasn't superior to AC for this purpose it wouldn't be used for it. But it is, and we do.

Of course it is superior for long transmission, even a cursory google search will show that. The problem is you have to get to that point where the saved-losses make up the cost of the conversion equipment.
 

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
Just recently, I made a Jacob's Ladder out of an old oil burner transformer for the oldest grandson to play with.... under my supervision, of course! My brother and I made those when we were real young. You can make a real good one out of an old neon light transformer as well.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Of course it is superior for long transmission, even a cursory google search will show that. The problem is you have to get to that point where the saved-losses make up the cost of the conversion equipment.

Horses for courses.
I was simply making the point that DC is used in some cases. To say that DC isn't better misses that point.
As a matter of fact, we have in service a number of variable speed drive systems where the distribution is DC usually derived from a 12- or 24-pulse rectifier.
Traction also uses DC distribution in some places.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Easier to DIE when shocked by high voltage DC vs AC.

DC might generate more heat at higher voltages, hence, voltage drop across wires.

Edison did have more money behind his operations, yet he had to allow others to get rich.

It is the opposite, AC is more likely to be fatal than DC with all other factors being equal.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
There is a lot to this discussion and I don't have time to type up the 1000 word essay required to answer it, but the big difference is today we have the ability to "transform" DC to higher transmission voltages and down to usable voltages at the loads, 100 years ago we did not. DC has less losses and a DC transmossion system would be much better than what we have now, but that means starting all over.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
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I don't believe that is true when tested over time.

If DC was truly better, that is the system that we would have now. It isn't and we don't.
That's not necessarily true. Remember the VHS vs. Betamax struggle? Just about everyone I know who was heavily into taped video said the the Beta system was better in virtually every way, but superior marketing efforts by those who invested in VHS made it the winner.

But for the AC vs. DC competition, I would think that the ability to easily convert voltages through transformers would be a major factor.
 
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K8MHZ

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That's not necessarily true. Remember the VHS vs. Betamax struggle? Just about everyone I know who was heavily into taped video said the the Beta system was better in virtually every way, but superior marketing efforts by those who invested in VHS made it the winner.

But for the AC vs. DC competition, I would think that the ability to easily convert voltages through transformers would be a major factor.

Technically, we use AC because we can bump up the voltage, thus reducing the amperage which makes covering long distances less lossy and needing smaller conductors. Then we can drop it down to safer levels for utilization.

But the historical reason is different. We did use DC at first. My city, Muskegon, Michigan, converted to AC from DC in 1920. I find stickers on old service panels from time to time indicating that the service was now AC and there is usually a date on the sticker indicating when the change was made.

In the days of yore, Edison and Westinghouse were competing against each other to build the generation system at Niagra. Westinghouse, on Tesla's advice, wanted AC. Edison wanted DC.

So Edison set out to prove how dangerous AC was. He arranged to have a death row inmate sit in an electric chair powered by AC. He made sure the media was present to witness how fast AC would kill a person if they came into contact with it. They threw the switch, the inmate writhed in excruciating pain, and lived. It took several more tries before he actually died. It was a gruesome sight, to say the least. This sickened the reporters so much that the bad press wiped out any chance of Edison getting the Niagra project and also was the beginning of the demise of all existing DC distribution and transmission projects. Trying to screw Westinghouse with that little scam was probably the biggest mistake Edison made in his life. It did show the extent Edison would go to in order to make money and discredit his competitors.

Edison also took credit for inventions he didn't invent. The light bulb was one. When it was discovered that others did the same thing before Edison, the story was revised that Edison invented the 'useful' light bulb by discovering that Tungsten was very suitable as a filament. The problem is that Edison didn't do that at all. William D. Coolidge did. But, since Coolidge was working for GE, Edison took all the credit.

Edison's pal, Marconi was also a creep of the highest order. I think all of us had school books that taught us that Marconi invented the radio even though the US awarded the patents to Tesla in the 40's. So why did the books not tell us that? Could it be that Marconi had a pal the owned a company that wrote text books? Rand, perhaps?? Or Hurst?? Somehow the fact that Tesla was proven the inventor of the radio escaped the school books and millions were erroneously taught that Marconi invented the radio.

I learned about Tesla and Edison in 1975. A friend of mine did a report for an assignment in school and dug up most of this stuff. I was both stunned and amazed. For one thing, I had no idea that Tesla did the things he did. In fact, I don't think I heard the name until high school, specifically until that report. I became a fan of Tesla then and started reading about him. One great book was called 'A man about time' or something close to that.

There are also many Tesla legends. Like powering a car with some radio tubes. As much as I would like to believe that was true, it probably isn't.

Tesla was successful at transferring electrical energy without wires, lighting up a light bulb a few hundred feet away or so. The feat has been duplicated. The problem is the amount of loss is huge, as one would imagine. Rumors abound that the reason we don't use wireless electricity is because the POCO's couldn't figure out a way to get paid for it, but the true reason is the amount of losses incurred.
 
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zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
I don't think that is the case for single phase AC, as it crosses the zero line and the 'let go' current is higher. At least that is what I was taught.

I like to experiment, but I think I'll pass on this one.....

Let go current for AC is around 5 times less than DC, so more likely to become stuck on the circuit, where duration becomes the big factor
AC causes ventricular fibrilation, which is leaded cause of death from a shock, DC does not cause fibrilation, in fact DC is used to stop fibrilation after an AC shock (AED)
AC causes muscles to contract, causing the victim to get stuck on the circuit, DC is more likely to casue muscles to stiffen so you "push" yourself off.

IEC 470 and IEEE std 80 contain all of this info and other "real" data on electric shocks. Some of the info that gets put out there at times is just plain wrong.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
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Electrician
Let go current for AC is around 5 times less than DC, so more likely to become stuck on the circuit, where duration becomes the big factor
AC causes ventricular fibrilation, which is leaded cause of death from a shock, DC does not cause fibrilation, in fact DC is used to stop fibrilation after an AC shock (AED)
AC causes muscles to contract, causing the victim to get stuck on the circuit, DC is more likely to casue muscles to stiffen so you "push" yourself off.

IEC 470 and IEEE std 80 contain all of this info and other "real" data on electric shocks. Some of the info that gets put out there at times is just plain wrong.

That makes sense.

It also wouldn't be the first thing I found incorrect in the NJATC apprenticeship course. The course was great, don't get me wrong. But I did find errors in the text and managed to get some of them corrected.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
So Edison set out to prove how dangerous AC was. He arranged to have a death row inmate sit in an electric chair powered by AC. He made sure the media was present to witness how fast AC would kill a person if they came into contact with it. They threw the switch, the inmate writhed in excruciating pain, and lived. It took several more tries before he actually died. It was a gruesome sight, to say the least. This sickened the reporters so much that the bad press wiped out any chance of Edison getting the Niagra project and also was the beginning of the demise of all existing DC distribution and transmission projects. Trying to screw Westinghouse with that little scam was probably the biggest mistake Edison made in his life. It did show the extent Edison would go to in order to make money and discredit his competitors.

Yeah, that display really backfired on Edison, it took several attempts to finally kill the guy and was a very graphic scene. Edison used to do these displays all the time using AC to kill different animals. Edison horse.jpg

And then there was Topsy, which wa another disaster for Edison, here is the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkBU3aYsf0Q
 
Let go current for AC is around 5 times less than DC, so more likely to become stuck on the circuit, where duration becomes the big factor
AC causes ventricular fibrilation, which is leaded cause of death from a shock, DC does not cause fibrilation, in fact DC is used to stop fibrilation after an AC shock (AED)
AC causes muscles to contract, causing the victim to get stuck on the circuit, DC is more likely to casue muscles to stiffen so you "push" yourself off.

IEC 470 and IEEE std 80 contain all of this info and other "real" data on electric shocks. Some of the info that gets put out there at times is just plain wrong.

DC causes the electrolytes in your body to be subject to galvanic reaction so you die form that.

Defibrillation can be performed in the case of AC, there is no reversal technology for the galvanic separation of your electrolytes and blood.
 

ActionDave

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Actually we do. HVDC transmission is used for long distance transmission. If it wasn't superior to AC for this purpose it wouldn't be used for it. But it is, and we do.
Still makes my point. Sure there are some things that DC is better for but those are limited, which is why the world uses AC.

That's not necessarily true. Remember the VHS vs. Betamax struggle? Just about everyone I know who was heavily into taped video said the the Beta system was better in virtually every way, but superior marketing efforts by those who invested in VHS made it the winner.
That is a consumer item compared to a commodity so you can't really compare.

It is true that Beta was the best, but it was Sony's business plan, not marketing on either side, that brought them down. They wanted to vertically integrate their product line; can only use a Sony tape in a Sony player. They learned their lesson and did not try the same thing with Blue Ray.

But for the AC vs. DC competition, I would think that the ability to easily convert voltages through transformers would be a major factor.
I agree.
 
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