The NEC. Does it stop at the outlet or not?

[iwire]

In my opinion the NEC passes right by any outlet, including beyond receptacle outlets.

When we look at 90.2(A) we find the NEC applies to electrical equipment installed in public and private premises.

The NEC is not limited to just the "premises wiring system" as defined in Article 100.

There are many of examples in the current NEC that apply only to cord and plug connected utilization equipment.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

In my opinion the NEC passes right by any outlet, including beyond receptacle outlets.

When we look at 90.2(A) we find the NEC applies to electrical equipment installed in public and private premises.

The NEC is not limited to just the "premises wiring system" as defined in Article 100.

There are many of examples in the current NEC that apply only to cord and plug connected utilization equipment.

I agree- the dishwasher is one of many examples esp. the ones that have factory installed cord and plugs. However, the dw is a fastened into place utilization equipment.

Can we really control what gets plugged into a recep. The NEC, IMO, takes that into consideration by limited circuits in certain areas where this is likely to happen.

 

[iwire]

I agree- the dishwasher is one of many examples esp. the ones that have factory installed cord and plugs. However, the dw is a fastened into place utilization equipment.

What does being fastened it in place have to do with it?

Look at the NEC definition of 'equipment' in Article 100 then take a read of 90.2(A).

Can we really control what gets plugged into a recep.

Nope, but that has nothing to do with what the NEC applies to. :smile:

Would you call holiday lights cord and plug connected?

Would you say they are 'fastened in place'?

Well the NEC applies to them, see 590.5.

The NEC, IMO, takes that into consideration by limited circuits in certain areas where this is likely to happen.

???

 

[al hildenbrand]

The issues embodied in a residential dishwasher is an interesting case.

Does the NEC size the cord? No. We install the manufacturer's cord, if the cord is not supplied, already installed, with the unit.

Why not use any cord? The NEC applies and tells us to follow the manufacturer's instructions.

To me, this is a question of which, NEC or some other regulation, is preponderate.

Because the cord and plug is specified by the manufacturer of the dishwasher, even though it may be field installed, the NEC, in this case, ends at the receptacle outlet.

 

[iwire]

the NEC, in this case, ends at the receptacle outlet.

I don't think the NEC ends, it co-exists with the manufacturers instructions that are in fact part of the listing.

If the DW instructions also say 'Always use brand X soap' that is just a suggestion, not a 110.3(B) issue.

The DW is still 'electric equipment' and it is still in a premises, the NEC still applies to it.

 

[charlie b]

I don?t know what you have in mind with this one, Bob.

In my opinion the NEC passes right by any outlet, including beyond receptacle outlets.

I disagree. I think we had a similar disagreement a week or two ago. Is this a follow-up to that discussion?

When we look at 90.2(A) we find the NEC applies to electrical equipment INSTALLED in public and private premises.

Did I do a good enough job of emphasizing the word ?installed?? This is, as I recall, the point upon which our earlier disagreement turned. I submit again that if you place a table lamp upon a table, or a coffee pot upon a countertop, or a radio upon a nightstand, and if you plug any of these things into a nearby receptacle outlet, you will not have ?installed? any of them. Thus, per 90.2(A), the NEC does not apply to them.

The NEC is not limited to just the "premises wiring system" as defined in Article 100.

I think it is, because it is only the ?premises wiring system? that gets ?installed.? Other electrical equipment will be placed within the premises, but such things are utilized; they are ?utilization equipment.?

Would you call holiday lights cord and plug connected?

Yes.

Would you say they are 'fastened in place'?

Yes.

Well the NEC applies to them, see 590.5.

It merely requires them to be listed. It imposes no requirements upon their manufacturer other than to run them through the UL (or other) testing process. It also says nothing about their ?installation.?

 

[iwire]

I don’t know what you have in mind with this one, Bob.

Nothing that I have not stated, just NEC discussion and understanding.

It is my opinion the NEC goes beyond the receptacle.

I disagree. I think we had a similar disagreement a week or two ago. Is this a follow-up to that discussion?

We did and you can call it a follow up if you would like but it was really a post by Al H. that brought it up again.

Did I do a good enough job of emphasizing the word “installed”?

Yes, I think so. :grin:

This is, as I recall, the point upon which our earlier disagreement turned. I submit again that if you place a table lamp upon a table, or a coffee pot upon a countertop, or a radio upon a nightstand, and if you plug any of these things into a nearby receptacle outlet, you will not have “installed” any of them.

I understand and respect that view but feel it is an opinion, not a statement of fact.

When I look up definitions of 'installed' I see a very broad range of definitions. I see terms such as

to set up for use or service

or

to establish in an indicated place, condition, or status

or

To connect or set in position and prepare for use

I see nothing in the NEC that limits those terms to only equipment that is screwed in place.

Assuming you are correct how well fastened in place must it be?

My window unit ACs sit on the window ledge and have two screws that secure it, I can remove it in a couple of minutes.

My TV is 'installed' inside an entertainment center.

You can see where I am going with that.:smile:

It merely requires them to be listed. It imposes no requirements upon their manufacturer other than to run them through the UL (or other) testing process. It also says nothing about their “installation.”

I don't see that how much or how little the section asks of the holiday lights makes a bit of difference.

Whatever it does require of holiday lights it is in fact a code section aimed at cord and plug connected utilization equipment.

There are also NEC sections requiring certain products be installed in vending machines (GFCIs) Window AC units (LDCIs)

 

[charlie b]

I did not intend to overemphasize the importance of the degree to which something is secured into place. That is not a key issue, in my view of the limits of the NEC?s applicability.

The ?scope? paragraph of Article 100 essentially tells us that if the NEC does not have a specific definition of a term that it uses, then we must rely on our common understanding of that term. But the English language often offers many, many meanings for the same word. If you go to one dictionary, and find one definition that suits your interpretation of the code, you don?t get to say that THAT is the definition that the code makers intended this word to mean.

I saw the same terms in the definition of ?install,? when I looked in the dictionary on my desk. I still submit (and yes, this is only my own opinion) that the NEC?s use of ?installation? has a higher and more technically oriented meaning. Nothing requires a homeowner to buy a copy of the NEC, nor to conform to anything written within it. The NEC is not an ?operator?s manual.? If the HO buys a window AC unit, and secures it in place using two screws, and then plugs it into a nearby receptacle, then (1) The HO is ?installing? the unit, in the context of common English usage, and in the context of the definition in your dictionary and in mine, and (2) The HO is not ?installing? the unit, in the context of NEC article 90.2(A). No electrical permit is needed, nor should one be. The HO does not need, and should not need, the advice or assistance of an electrician, in order to plug in the unit.

If the unit requires a 220 volt outlet, and if there is none nearby, then it is an electrical installation task to put one there. In that case, the premises wiring system is being modified, and a new outlet is created. It is within the scope of the NEC, and it is a task best left to a professional electrician. But the act of plugging the A/C unit cord into that new outlet is not an electrical installation task. It does not modify the premises wiring system. It is not within the scope of the NEC, and the HO is not going to pay an electrician to do that task.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I don't think the NEC ends, it co-exists with the manufacturers instructions that are in fact part of the listing.

Actually, my sentence before your quote has me agreeing with you. . .

To me, this is a question of which, NEC or some other regulation, is preponderate.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I love it when you guys fight

 

[iwire]

But the English language often offers many, many meanings for the same word. If you go to one dictionary, and find one definition that suits your interpretation of the code, you don’t get to say that THAT is the definition that the code makers intended this word to mean.

Lacking any knowledge of the code makers intent IMO we have no choice to be include all common definitions.

Nothing requires a homeowner to buy a copy of the NEC, nor to conform to anything written within it. The NEC is not an “operator’s manual

I don't see that as having anything to do with the NECs scope or purpose.

As a citizen I am not required to even look at a law book, but sure as heck it still applies to me. :smile:

If the HO buys a window AC unit, and secures it in place using two screws, and then plugs it into a nearby receptacle, then (1) The HO is “installing” the unit, in the context of common English usage, and in the context of the definition in your dictionary and in mine, and (2) The HO is not “installing” the unit, in the context of NEC article 90.2(A). No electrical permit is needed, nor should one be. The HO does not need, and should not need, the advice or assistance of an electrician, in order to plug in the unit

As you know the NEC has absolutely nothing to do with permits and licenses that is up to each Local area. So your above quote really has no bearing on what the NEC covers per 90.2

IMO you are mixing scope, licensing and permits when they are all separate and distinct issue.

Let me restate my position.

1) The NEC applies to all electric equipment installed in a home.

2) That does not mean an electrician is required to plug a lamp in.

3) That does not mean a permit must be pulled for that lamp.

4) That does not mean an inspection must be done on that lamp.

Items 2, 3 and 4 are decided on a local level hopefully with some common sense.

 

[iwire]

Actually, my sentence before your quote has me agreeing with you. . .

Sorry, I read it as saying the NEC stops when other standards start.

 

[zbang]

I pretty much agree with Charlie on this one, wth a little discussion. In general, I think the NEC stops at the outlet and isn't concerned with the utilization equipment. However, since there are specific requirements in parts of the code for "listed equipment" or for specific equipment construction, I take that to mean that you can't infer such a requirement in other places.

Example- 520.61 directs us that "arc lamps shall be listed" and 520.62 describes the the construction of Portable Power Distribution Units (2002 code). Is there a code section that describes the construction of table lamp fixtures? Generally they're constructed of UL parts, but may not be UL listed. I don't think the NEC is concerned about this.

 

[iwire]

I love it when you guys fight

Fight?

No

Disagree ... you bet.

 

[iwire]

However, since there are specific requirements in parts of the code for "listed equipment" or for specific equipment construction,

IMO if the NEC applies to vending machines (422.51), window air conditioners (440.65), holiday lights (590.5), Stands for cord and plug connected appliances (422.45), Flatirons (422.44) and hot water heaters (422.47) it is imposable to say the NEC stops at the outlets.

 

[jflynn]

Let me restate my position.

1) The NEC applies to all electric equipment installed in a home.

2) That does not mean an electrician is required to plug a lamp in.

3) That does not mean a permit must be pulled for that lamp.

4) That does not mean an inspection must be done on that lamp.

Items 2, 3 and 4 are decided on a local level hopefully with some common sense.

I agree with Bob on this one,after all,- safety should be everyones priority...

 

[sandsnow]

In this case the NEC does not stop at the outlet.

422.51 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Vending Machines.
Cord-and-plug-connected vending machines manufactured or re-manufactured on or after January 1, 2005, shall include a ground-fault circuit-interrupter as an integral part of the attachment plug or located in the power supply cord within 300 mm (12 in.) of the attachment plug. Cord-and-plug-connected vending machines not incorporating integral GFCI protection shall be connected to a GFCI protected outlet.

This tells the manufacturer how to make their appliance.

 

[sandsnow]

Is there a code section that describes the construction of table lamp fixtures? Generally they're constructed of UL parts, but may not be UL listed. I don't think the NEC is concerned about this.

This covers the weight of the screw CFL's. At least I think those things are listed as luminaires.

410.15 Supports.
(A) General. Luminaires (fixtures) and lampholders shall be securely supported. A luminaire (fixture) that weighs more than 3 kg (6 lb) or exceeds 400 mm (16 in.) in any dimension shall not be supported by the screw shell of a lampholder.

Here's one for table top luminaires

410.3 Live Parts.
Luminaires (fixtures), lampholders, and lamps shall have no live parts normally exposed to contact. Exposed accessible terminals in lampholders and switches shall not be installed in metal luminaire (fixture) canopies or in open bases of portable table or floor lamps.

 

[iwire]

Thanks for the back up. :smile:

Here's one for table top luminaires

Table top luminaires, that is just wrong. :grin:

I can pretty much guarantee that my local furniture store does not have a table top luminaire aisle.

 

[sandsnow]

Thanks for the back up. :smile:




Table top luminaires, that is just wrong. :grin:

I can pretty much guarantee that my local furniture store does not have a table top luminaire aisle.

Your welcome.

Table Top Luminaires, yeah I know but I am forcing myself to use the term luminaire 'cause it's in the Code now.

I bet Home Depot or Lowe's does not even stock luminaires. I bet they have plenty of light fixtures though.