To Bond the Pool Pump to the EPB Or Not

[Dennis Alwon]

I was on another forum with engineers and here is a comment I still don't get. Can anyone enlighten me as I would love some opinions on this

Dennis the fact is that if you didn?t connect the grounding terminal of the motor pump to the bounding grid, you reduced the electrical hazard shock to zero.

Here is the entire thread

 

[infinity]

OK, I read through that thread and now I have a headache.

I agree with your argument and disagree with most of their rationale, at least that of which I could understand.

 

[TimK]

OK, I read through that thread and now I have a headache.

I agree with your argument and disagree with most of their rationale, at least that of which I could understand.

I can understand the idea of keeping the seperation from power, but with the equipotential plane installed everywhere, how are you supposed to keep the motor, pump, housings, and water all isolated from this grid? Makes no sense to me Dennis.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Many of these guys are engineers so I am assuming they know what they are talking about. Oh well....

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Many of these guys are engineers so I am assuming they know what they are talking about. Oh well....

when it comes to grounding and bonding I would never make that assumption.

 

[SG-1]

when it comes to grounding and bonding I would never make that assumption.

Amen to that, & also to sizing conductors & choosing the correct breaker size for a load. Some of them really scare me at times.

 

[ActionDave]

Many of these guys are engineers so I am assuming they know what they are talking about. Oh well....

I didn't read the whole thread. Maybe tomorrow.

Something to consider-
We take one of our current paths and attach it to the earth. A lot of places in the world do not. I think this difference plays into the discussion .

 

[Dennis Alwon]

OK, I read through that thread and now I have a headache.

I agree with your argument and disagree with most of their rationale, at least that of which I could understand.

I am glad I am not the only one lost.

 

[infinity]

IMO Article 680 is somewhat clear on what's required. If the engineer is biased because they don't do it that way in Europe or Asia that doesn't change the requirements of the NEC.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

IMO Article 680 is somewhat clear on what's required. If the engineer is biased because they don't do it that way in Europe or Asia that doesn't change the requirements of the NEC.

I don't think he is arguing the art. requirements. It is clear- he just disagrees with it.

 

[jwelectric]

I agree with Dave that there is a difference between their installations and ours and will continue to say that it has been my experience that the more education a person gets the less common sense they have.

As a kid growing up I thought that engineers was a person that worked on a train.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I tend to agree that the bonding and grounding required for pools acutally requries us to energize the pool water and equipment, but until there is a complete prohibition of any electrical equipment within 10' of the pool and a requirement for tripple or quad insulated pool pumps and heaters, there is no way that the pool bonding system can be isolated from the electrical grounding system. With complete isolation, we would not be required to energize the pool water and equipment. The equal potential bonding would still be required to give the "bird on a wire effect" but the bonding would not be connected to the electrical system in any way.

 

[infinity]

Not to derail this thread but what is the bird on a wire effect?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I tend to agree that the bonding and grounding required for pools acutally requries us to energize the pool water and equipment, but until there is a complete prohibition of any electrical equipment within 10' of the pool and a requirement for tripple or quad insulated pool pumps and heaters, there is no way that the pool bonding system can be isolated from the electrical grounding system. With complete isolation, we would not be required to energize the pool water and equipment. The equal potential bonding would still be required to give the "bird on a wire effect" but the bonding would not be connected to the electrical system in any way.

I am trying to visualize a system that is isolated. I can see the perimeter bonding and meter parts that are not electrical being isolated but as soon as a piece of electrical equipment is introduced then they are connected.


One could connect all non electrical metal parts together without connecting to the electrical equipment but then you could not bond any of the electrical components thru the epb.

 

[ActionDave]

Not to derail this thread but what is the bird on a wire effect?

Birds sit on a 13,000V or greater power line and don't die.

 

[infinity]

Birds sit on a 13,000V or greater power line and don't die.

OK?

 

[ActionDave]

OK?

It is just a colloquial way to say that being in contact with an ungrounded conductor won't cause any harm if there is no corresponding contact to ground potential.

Linemen work on energized systems all the time. Many electricians, under a specific set of circumstances, have touched live, ungrounded conductors and not received any sort of shock. A short way to express why it is possible is summed up by the phrase, "Bird on a wire."

 

[ActionDave]

.... it has been my experience that the more education a person gets the less common sense they have
.

You seem to be pretty sharp. I reckon that means you dropped out of school no later than the second year of fourth grade, no.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I am trying to visualize a system that is isolated. I can see the perimeter bonding and meter parts that are not electrical being isolated but as soon as a piece of electrical equipment is introduced then they are connected.


One could connect all non electrical metal parts together without connecting to the electrical equipment but then you could not bond any of the electrical components thru the epb.

As long as there is electrical equipment that is part of the pool you can't really isolate.

I am suggesting that if the code would require "triple" or "quad" insulated pool equipment (products that do not exist so new product standards would be required), then you could isolate the pool bonding system from the electrical grounding/bonding system.

 

[jwelectric]

You seem to be pretty sharp. I reckon that means you dropped out of school no later than the second year of fourth grade, no.

I have you know I went through school, in the front door and out the back as fast as my little legs would get me down to the fishing hole. :lol: