Under the NEC or Not?

[iwire]

Thanks Jag, I was hoping someone familiar with solar installs would chime in.

Did my first 50 KW solar about 4 years ago, done a few smaller systems, been to night classes to learn how to do it, design it etc. The company I work for has done gigawatts worth of installations.

So while I certainly welcome Jag's input, views and experience I did not just fall off the turnip truck.

 

[iwire]

Let's suppose for a second that this is under the NEC (and is not a listed, self contained device).

Ever install a small split AC system, like a Mr Slim?

Anyway both the indoor and outdoor parts are list to work as a team and they will often ship with a type of flexible cord to connect the indoor unit to the outdoor unit. The indoor unit gets the power to run from the outdoor unit.

Now it is all listed, can I install it without the NEC? Can I run the flexible cord through walls and such?

 

[jim dungar]

Now I think we can all agree this tiny system does not pose much of a danger but at what point would you say it does? How large of a 'plug and play' PV system should we be able to install without the NEC applying?

Never said the NEC does not apply. Just said that Article 690 does not.

Installation should be per Chapters 1-4.

 

[jaggedben]

How large of a 'plug and play' PV system should we be able to install without the NEC applying?

It's not a question of how large it is. It's a question of whether the device is a self-contained listed unit, or whether it requires wiring that falls under the purview of the NEC.

There are other products on the market that are similar to the one under discussion but have no external wiring. Assuming they're listed, IMO the NEC has nothing substantive to say about their installation.

 

[jaggedben]

Anyway both the indoor and outdoor parts are list to work as a team and they will often ship with a type of flexible cord to connect the indoor unit to the outdoor unit. The indoor unit gets the power to run from the outdoor unit.

I think both your example and the PV device under discussion arguably have wiring that falls under the purview of the NEC. All I meant with my first post was to say: let's leave that discussion aside and look at what the NEC actually says about the wiring.

 

[Little Bill]

Did my first 50 KW solar about 4 years ago, done a few smaller systems, been to night classes to learn how to do it, design it etc. The company I work for has done gigawatts worth of installations.

So while I certainly welcome Jag's input, views and experience I did not just fall off the turnip truck.

Sorry to leave you out of the "lime light"!

And I was to know of your solar experience how?

Jag's is in his profile!

 

[iwire]

It's not a question of how large it is. It's a question of whether the device is a self-contained listed unit, or whether it requires wiring that falls under the purview of the NEC.

I think you missed my point.

And can you point to the section in the NEC that excludes 'self-contained listed units'

There are other products on the market that are similar to the one under discussion but have no external wiring. Assuming they're listed, IMO the NEC has nothing substantive to say about their installation.

Well we will have to remain in disagreement, I feel you are just dismissing the issue because it rubs you wrong without really thinking on it.

 

[iwire]

Never said the NEC does not apply. Just said that Article 690 does not.

And I am still not seeing where the scope of 690 excludes this unit.

Installation should be per Chapters 1-4.

I agree for the parts of it 690 does not address.

 

[iwire]

And I was to know of your solar experience how?

ESP. :thumbsup:

 

[Little Bill]

ESP. :thumbsup:

ESP.....ExtraSensitivePerson

 

[jim dungar]

And I am still not seeing where the scope of 690 excludes this unit.

After a little more reading, I find, that the last sentence of the scope in 690.1 does not require an inverter to be part of the PV system (DC outputs are allowed).
I am having a hard time figuring out which portions of 690 do apply for this small of a Stand-Alone system which is not interconnected to premises wiring. 690.4(E) requires them to be installed by qualified persons. 690.5 has an exception for this type system, depending on the interpretation of 'circuits isolated from buildings'. 690.11 does not apply to a 12VDC output. 690.13 is not applicable as this stand alone PV system supplies no other (i.e. non-dc) conductors. 690.31(E) requires a metal raceway (or cable) up to the point of a disconnecting means. 690.56 seems excessive for a small system like this, however there does not appear to be any relief from it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Stand alone ?????

I'm comparing 690.1 and 692.1!

If the OP is considered stand alone then does stand alone apply to my picture?
OR
Are these appliances?

692.1 Scope. This article identifies the requirements for
the installation of fuel cell power systems, which may be
stand-alone or interactive with other electric power production
sources and may be with or without electric energy
storage such as batteries. These systems may have ac or dc
output for utilization.

 

[jim dungar]

View attachment 7050

Is that a battery or a fuel cell? It certainly is not Photovoltaic.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Is that a battery or a fuel cell? It certainly is not Photovoltaic.

Battery. Just trying to get some thinking about what is and is not under the NEC.

 

[shortcircuit2]

Because it is a barn, the install would be subject to article 547 also...

 

[shortcircuit2]

In Massachusetts, because it is electrical wiring for hire...a license, a permit, and inspection is required.

 

[jxofaltrds]

In Massachusetts, because it is electrical wiring for hire...a license, a permit, and inspection is required.

Would my battery sump require a permit? Plumbing, electrical, both, none?

 

[kwired]

Never said the NEC does not apply. Just said that Article 690 does not.

Installation should be per Chapters 1-4.

I pretty much agree with this. There is a couple things to consider. It has been asked if the thing is listed, if so we must consider any instructions that are part of the listing. If this source is listed as a class 2 or 3 power limited source then art 725 will apply, art 411 sends us to 725 where it applies to power limited low voltage lighting. Something to think about. It is possible we need changes to 690 to clarify what limited power installations may or may not be covered by 690. If the source is not listed as a power limited supply then I have to agree for now that 690 applies. Go ahead and shoot this down if you have something to counter it with, I really don't have a definite answer.

Those are the cleanest, driest pigpens I've ever seen! What happened to wallowing the mud? Is that not politically correct now? :roll:

They are pets and not production livestock - just like horses they have more space per animal and live happier and are given more love and attention.

Because it is a barn, the install would be subject to article 547 also...

That is debatable. I have been to peoples homes that meet 547 conditions more so than this building.:happyyes:

 

[jaggedben]

I think you missed my point.

And can you point to the section in the NEC that excludes 'self-contained listed units'

Not those words exactly, but I'll go with 300.1(B) and 'conductors that form an integral part of ...listed utilization equipment'. I think it definitely excludes a self-contained unit containing a PV power source and utilization equipment and no external connections. And while article 100, for example, may apply to such a unit, there is pretty much nothing in it that will substantively affect its installation.

Well we will have to remain in disagreement, I feel you are just dismissing the issue because it rubs you wrong without really thinking on it.

I don't know why you'd say that, because I don't know specifically what you and I are in disagreement about.

 

[Little Bill]

Those are the cleanest, driest pigpens I've ever seen! What happened to wallowing the mud? Is that not politically correct now? :roll:

I pretty much agree with this. There is a couple things to consider. It has been asked if the thing is listed, if so we must consider any instructions that are part of the listing. If this source is listed as a class 2 or 3 power limited source then art 725 will apply, art 411 sends us to 725 where it applies to power limited low voltage lighting. Something to think about. It is possible we need changes to 690 to clarify what limited power installations may or may not be covered by 690. If the source is not listed as a power limited supply then I have to agree for now that 690 applies. Go ahead and shoot this down if you have something to counter it with, I really don't have a definite answer.

They are pets and not production livestock - just like horses they have more space per animal and live happier and are given more love and attention.

The question still stands as far as on the merits, but the situation is resolved. The owner took the fan/solar panel down. The inspector checked the other items listed and passed the final. He also said if we could show him it was listed he would have accepted the fan install as was. I don't think they had the paperwork or just didn't want anymore hassle.

Kwire is correct in the pigs aren't usually raised/treated as live stock. However, this isn't actually a pig farm per se. It is a pig santuary. They take in unwanted pigs that either were abandoned or people decided they didn't want that kind of pet and wanted rid of them.