VFD's and MOTOR STARTERS

Status
Not open for further replies.

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Can you provide the numbers?

I do not have them off hand. A while back an AB guy gave us a class and told us that. The numbers came from SISTEMA so I am inclined to believe them.

I was told something similar by one of the Schneider guys about their drives and wiring a safety relay into one of the terminals on the drive. Somehow it tests out at being "safer" than having an output contactor.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I do not have them off hand. A while back an AB guy gave us a class and told us that. The numbers came from SISTEMA so I am inclined to believe them.

I was told something similar by one of the Schneider guys about their drives and wiring a safety relay into one of the terminals on the drive. Somehow it tests out at being "safer" than having an output contactor.
That "somehow" would be interesting to know.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
That "somehow" would be interesting to know.

Got me. I have been thru several classes on using SISTEMA for calculating PL and it is just plain black magic to me. The numbers used in the calcs come from the manufacturers. No idea what they are based on.

Supposedly one of the numbers is how long the thing is likely to last before a dangerous failure. it will give you a number like 67 years. How can it possibly know that without testing some for 67 years? it is unlikely that part will still be made in 67 years.

I do believe though that in general the safe off functions are pretty safe. They interrupt the pulse train to the output semiconductors. If the output semiconductors cannot fire in the correct sequence it is impossible for the motor to provide rotational energy. A semiconductor could short on and you could potentially have power on the motor but no rotation because the pulse sequence is gone.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Got me. I have been thru several classes on using SISTEMA for calculating PL and it is just plain black magic to me. The numbers used in the calcs come from the manufacturers.
Then I'm tempted to come with that hackneyed old phrase "well they would say that, wouldn't they?"
An independent study just might carry a bit more authority.

I'm not saying that the manufacturers are being less than honest. But one could be excused for suggesting that they might have a vested interested in the claim.

I do believe though that in general the safe off functions are pretty safe. They interrupt the pulse train to the output semiconductors. If the output semiconductors cannot fire in the correct sequence it is impossible for the motor to provide rotational energy. A semiconductor could short on and you could potentially have power on the motor but no rotation because the pulse sequence is gone.
Pretty safe.
That is the ball breaker.
 

Aleman

Senior Member
Location
Southern Ca, USA
contactors are "pretty safe" too, but have been known to fail on from time to time.

IMAG0184.jpg

Yes they do fail sometimes. Now this did trip the breaker feeding it and a guy flipped on the breaker before doing any real troubleshooting. Made
a pretty good noise. At least he was smart enough to be standing off to the side. And to make it even more interesting, we had one more blow up
and it wasn't even the same motor or position. I have formed a low opinion of these contactors made by Schneider.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
View attachment 12776

Yes they do fail sometimes. Now this did trip the breaker feeding it and a guy flipped on the breaker before doing any real troubleshooting. Made
a pretty good noise. At least he was smart enough to be standing off to the side. And to make it even more interesting, we had one more blow up
and it wasn't even the same motor or position. I have formed a low opinion of these contactors made by Schneider.

I had a case where two Siemens contactors with overloads were next to each other in a cabinet. Some how the 5 HP motor wires and the 0.5 HP motors got wired to the wrong contactors. One might be inclined to think that the smaller contactor would just trip but what actually happened was the overload on the smaller contactor melted instead of tripping. They were on a 15A CB so the CB didn't trip either.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I had a case where two Siemens contactors with overloads were next to each other in a cabinet. Some how the 5 HP motor wires and the 0.5 HP motors got wired to the wrong contactors. One might be inclined to think that the smaller contactor would just trip but what actually happened was the overload on the smaller contactor melted instead of tripping. They were on a 15A CB so the CB didn't trip either.

With the right physical layout and a high enough overcurrent, I can see a fixed resistor (the overload thermal source) burning out before the heat has time to make it to the bimetal and cause an OL trip.
You would then have the interesting situation in which the OL element tries to break the circuit under full load. I can visualize lots of arcing as a potential result.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
contactors are "pretty safe" too, but have been known to fail on from time to time.
This is true. Failure mode though?
Fail to close if the control wires fall off? Not likely to be an unsafe condition.
Fail to open if the contacts weld? Possible, and can pose a risk. We sequence it so that the drive is shut off before the contactor opens so that it isn't breaking current to obviate that issue.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
View attachment 12776

Yes they do fail sometimes. Now this did trip the breaker feeding it and a guy flipped on the breaker before doing any real troubleshooting. Made
a pretty good noise. At least he was smart enough to be standing off to the side. And to make it even more interesting, we had one more blow up
and it wasn't even the same motor or position. I have formed a low opinion of these contactors made by Schneider.
Just th Schneider contactors or all IEC style contactors? From what I have seen most IEC contactors are pretty similar in the basic design.

Close spacing between each pole compared to a NEMA contactor means flashover is going to happen much easier, especially on 480 volt systems.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Pretty safe.
That is the ball breaker.
The AB literature on their safe off option says this:

The PowerFlex 750-Series safety option is certified for use in safety applications
up to and including SIL 3 according to EN 61800-5-2, EN 61508, and EN
62061, Performance Level PL e and Category 3 according to ISO 13849-1.
Safety requirements are based on the standards current at the time of
certification.
My understanding is that PL e is the highest PL there is. That would seem to suggest it is about as safe as it gets.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
The AB literature on their safe off option says this:


My understanding is that PL e is the highest PL there is. That would seem to suggest it is about as safe as it gets.
Well, sort of. Yes, the Performance Level doesn't go higher than e, but there is also the safety "category" involved as well. Cat. 3 means a SINGLE failure of a component will not cause a loss of safety function, but you can also have Cat 4, in which MULTIPLE failures will still not result in a loss of the safety function. Cat. 3 can have anything from PL-b to PL-e, Cat. 4 is always going to be PL-e.

So in the AB Drives world, you can get Cat. 3 PL-e using the STO option on the PF40 and PF525 drives, but you still need a Safety Relay to engage the STO command. So it cannot be listed higher than Cat 3 because the safety relay monitors the potential loss of safety sensor device ahead of it, but the VFD STO system does not monitor the safety relay functionality itself, so the failure of the switch AND the relay could negate the safe functionality. The STO function basically just eliminates the requirement for an additional safety contactor between the drive and the motor, meaning the STO option in the drive has the same or better reliability in preventing the motor from developing torque as a safety contactor would. That rating necessitates evaluating the MTTF (Mean Time To failure) of the safety contactors and testing to ensure that the MTTF of the STO function in the VFD is the same or better. In all reports I have read, the STO did indeed come out with a significantly higher MTTF number, meaning there was (statistically) MORE time between failures than with a safety contactor. And for those who don't know, there is a difference between a "safety contactor" and an every day contactor, mainly in that the contact movement to the Open condition must be "positively driven". That means no gravity or indirect bell crank movement, there must be a mechanism (spring) of sufficient strength acting directly on the armature cross arm to force all three of the contacts open in the even of being told to open under conditions that might otherwise weld contacts shut.

The highest level of Safety options available on VFD you can get, with the PF755 for example, is Cat. 4 PL-e and with that you do NOT need the Safety Relay any more either. That's because the Cat. 4 Safety Circuit inside of the drive is monitoring the sensor, PLUS it is continuously monitoring itself and has a fail safe mode since it is ALSO the end effector in the system.

One of these days soon, OSHA is going to adopt all of these IEC safety standards as requirements instead of just "suggesting" them, so if any of you plan on doing industrial work in the future and get a chance to take a class offered by a vendor of safety relays and safety systems, I highly suggest taking the time to do it. That light at the end of the tunnel is a freight train heading your way...
 

Aleman

Senior Member
Location
Southern Ca, USA
Open circuit or short circuit in that particular case?

I think 1 leg fused but maybe not. Hard to tell because it blew up pretty good. The breaker and the OL should have prevented that but both breaker and contactor
are poor quality. The OL was set right too. The breaker did trip in the end. Moral of the story is take the time to figure out why the breaker tripped before resetting
it. A lot of people just give it another try hoping it was a nuisance trip.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
The AB literature on their safe off option says this:


My understanding is that PL e is the highest PL there is. That would seem to suggest it is about as safe as it gets.

From their website:

The PowerFlex 750-Series Safe Torque Off option:
? Is designed to help safely remove power from the gate firing circuits of the
drive?s output power devices (IGBT?s). This helps prevent the drive?s
output power devices from switching in the pattern necessary to generate
AC power to the motor.
? Can be used in combination with other safety devices to satisfy the
requirements of IEC 61508, IEC 61800-5-2 SIL 3, ISO 13849-1 PL e, and
Category 3 for Safe Torque Off (STO)

Phrases like "can be used in combination with" and "helps prevent" don't fill me with a great deal of confidence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top